SEO in the AI Era: The Models Are 15 Months Behind

Tyler: My recommendation is stop looking for like the short term hacks and start building your brand. Ultimately, businesses who are good at solving people’s problems and talking about it online and portraying that online will win in the long term.

Coby: Tyler, you wanna grab a drink?

Tyler: Yeah, let’s do it.

Nicole: Hi, it’s producer Nicole Denson. Today we’re talking with Tyler Brown, head of SEO and AI at Big Leap. With over 15 years in digital marketing. Tyler has worked on hundreds of SEO campaigns and helped shape strategy across more than 1000 client accounts. From teaching himself SEO back in 2008 to now leading out on conversations around AI search, he brings a sharp, forward thinking perspective on where search is headed and how brands can keep up.

Outside of work, he’s just as dedicated, whether that’s coaching baseball, skiing, perfecting his smoked meats or fishing. Let’s get into it. Back to the show.

Coby: So what’s new at Big Leap?

Tyler:I mean, if you ask me, new in, like, the last couple of years, I think you probably know the answer. With the digital marketing space and how it’s been changing so quickly? Just been doing a lot of podcasts. I spoke AI mark on last week. It was good. Yeah.

Tyler: I, it was honestly one of my first, like, real speaking gigs. And, I joked that, with Dan, that I’m not in my conference speaking era. But I’m in my meat-smoking era.

Coby: I saw that. What’s your favorite smoked meat?

Tyler: Brisket.

Coby: You know, do you have, like, a favorite? My mom does a Rocky Mountain brisket. So what’s your favorite? What’s your secret? Do you have a secret sauce, or are you willing to tell me what your secret sauce is?

Tyler: Honestly, I usually, inject it with what they called prime brisket injection on Amazon.

Coby: Okay.

Tyler: And it’s got MSG. And, like, lots of flavor and salt.

Coby: Meth and crack

Tyler: You know what I’m talking about.

Coby: Yeah. Okay.

Tyler: It makes it delicious. I’ll tell you that much. Well, and then, honestly, I just like traditional kind of Texas style rub, salt, pepper. Or sometimes I’ll go a little crazier here and there, but just low and slow.

Coby: Low and slow. I think that, you know, if it’s a good recipe, if it rhymes, I think that’s the rule, right?

Tyler: I guess so.

Coby: Low and slow, baby. Right. What do you use to smoke it?

Tyler: I have a Traeger. Okay. And so, like, my brother calls it, Easy-Bake oven. Yeah, I love that. Because it’s a big.

Coby: For a dude.

Tyler: Yeah, basically, he lives out in Kansas City, and that’s where they do it for real, right?

Coby: Like in a pit?

Tyler: Yeah, yeah. Or are there, like, tending in the fire all night long or whatever? He uses a charcoal grill, so he’s still not doing that. Okay. Old school style, but he makes fun of me. But I don’t care. I love it.

Coby: Who cares? It all tastes good. Have you ever had brisket or had smoked meats out of a smoked pit, like Texas style in the ground smoke pit? Have you ever done that?

Tyler: I mean, I’ve I’ve had it from, like, amazing barbecue places down in Kansas City.

Coby: Okay.

Tyler: Like, I didn’t inspect how they, how they cooked it necessarily, but, oh man, there’s some good stuff.

Coby: How long you been smoking meats for?

Tyler: About 10 years. 12 years, maybe.

Coby: So if you weren’t the director SEO at Big Leap, you’d you’d have a chain of smoked meat shops. T-Bone. Smoked meat. I mean, you have the nickname for it. Yeah. I think it’s probably your calling.

Tyler: Yeah, well, I’ve talked about it from time to time. Not sure I’m ready for the long nights and weekends, but,

Coby: Is that is that how you got your nickname? I just wanted to ask.

Tyler: Not necessarily, but I think it probably influenced part of it. I honestly don’t even remember.

Coby: Okay, so, I mean, you you stay pretty current. I mean, you’re given talks and stuff, right? About all of this. What’s something you’re seeing that no one else is seeing? Like what? Where are you taking Big Leap when it comes to SEO?

Tyler: Yeah, it’s a good question. I think, like, if I could contrast this against what I see, like, in the industry. Like, I see a lot of people trying to play the game, you know. Sort of hack the algorithm or you know, show where they can, when they can. Yeah. And I don’t know, I think big league, we’re just trying to build something more like real more long term. Something that that, brands that we work with can, like stand behind and get excited with. I’ve never seen a, C-suite exec team get excited about building backlinks using relatively boring content. Can it work in the SEO space, yeah. Of course. And, and we absolutely do some of that. But where I see the space going and where we’re really pushing is just real marketing, right? Yeah. Will Reynolds called it real marketing sh*t a while back.

Coby: Yeah.

Tyler: It’s probably ten years, honestly. He said that a long time ago, and I don’t I just I don’t think it’s ever been more true as, like, companies that engage in, like, real marketing shit. Well, ultimately when and so that’s, I think where I’m trying to push Big Leap where I, I know a lot of, leadership team is pushing as well.

Tyler: And many of our, our fulfillment teams are excited. The the real stuff. The real stuff. Stuff that’s exciting. That’s fun. That means not just clicks, not just short term gains, but like real long term wins.

Coby: So what’s an example of a short term strategy? That has worked, but I’m hearing that they’re not going to work as well anymore. Right?

Tyler: Yeah.

Coby: So what has worked that that might have been a hack that isn’t going to work anymore. And why?

Tyler: Yeah. I mean, I hear in the space all the time where, people just AI generate content.

Coby: Okay.

Tyler: But yeah, is it working? In a lot of ways, yeah, for sure, but that’s why they’re doing it, right?

Coby: You know, AI knows when it’s AI just because there’s little markers left in AI output that a lot of people don’t know about.

Tyler: There are. Yep. Yeah.

Coby: When I first learned about the first one, I mean I know there’s a lot of them and most of them I don’t. But I learned about the one like the little secret characters that get put in AI output all the time and, you know, as I go, well, of course there’s going to be a fingerprint. And of course they want to do that, but so is that what you’re talking about is.

Coby: Yeah.

Tyler: Yeah. Even I was testing out with Claude. I think it was yesterday. And I told it to take some content, some stuff that I wrote and just, like, embellish it and and build on it, and it totally did a good job. In fact, Claude is really good at, like, natural language. And then I threw it into an AI detector, 100% AI, and it knew like immediately, even though Claude is one of the best and, so then I turned around and I told Claude, hey, I need you to help me make that more human so it doesn’t sound like a robot wrote it, and it told me it can’t do that.

Coby: It couldn’t make it any more human?

Tyler: It just told me that it was like against its terms and services. And I was like, this is so weird.

Coby: So do you- This reminds me. I just learned I mean, I guess people know about this all the time. I just learned about it in the last six months. When color printers became ubiquitous home color printers, especially when they got pretty good, like, I think home color laser printers. Right. There there was a law that, in every page output there was in yellow a pattern that would get output onto the print such that you could tell where or when the, when that thing was printed and on what machine.

Coby: Basically, its Mac address and interest. Did you know about this?

Tyler: I have not heard about that.

Coby: And this was a federal requirement. It was an anti counterfeiting requirement from the federal government law. And it finally got like, the word’s not repealed, but like it stopped being requirement after a period of time. And when I first heard about that it was only like 3 or maybe 4 months ago. It’s like I’m sure that there’s AI stuff.

Coby: So there is for sure output like controls that these other-

Tyler: There are. Yeah. And I think most platforms have like it’s not necessarily unseen markers. They’re just markers within the content that make it very obvious that AI generated it.

Coby: And we’re talking about more than just an EM dash.

Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. Like that’s a small one that a lot of people have caught on to.

Coby: Right? Is that why it’s there?

Tyler: There’s actually, I don’t think that’s why it’s there. And they’re kind of ChatGPT is currently trying to make it so users can control when they get EM dash and when they don’t. Yeah. Because it’s become such a joke.

Coby: Okay. So is are are you sworn to secrecy on what some of those other markers might be? Are you going to. Is this a, like, a trade secret?

Tyler: No, definitely not.

Coby: Like spycraft?

Tyler: Definitely not. Lately. The ones I see the most are these little mini arrows inside of the content. Yeah. Where it will show like step one, arrow step two. And like, every time I see someone publish something with that in it, I’m like, yeah, like guarantee you.

Coby: Or emojis at all. Yeah. I have never used an emoji in a piece of business pros in 25 years of writing. And all of a sudden I’m seeing the CEO. Not not yet, but I like I’m seeing output from like, people my age and I’m like, no, dude. Like, I know you haven’t been using emojis your whole career.

Tyler: They’re Gen Z. Maybe they have a little bit of, excuse, but yeah, for the for the most part where people just don’t write that way. The other one that’s really funny is when you like, copy and paste, put it into a different document, you’ll see like a heading at the top. And then that second line has a space and then and then the last.

Tyler: And so whenever you see that little like space, at the start, it’s almost like like you remember, you used the double space documents and like in word.

Coby: You double-spaced after the period.

Tyler: That’s what. Yep. That’s what it feels like. So it’s like a little marker you can look forward to.

Coby: Well, the one that I’m aware of is if you open it up in it like a text editor. That’s where like some of this, like some of the hidden characters that are really weird, random characters, like a quote, like a single quote mark every once in a while will come up. And those are other ones. Yeah.

Tyler: Yeah, I’ve definitely seen those before. That comes up a lot, I think when it does like a canvas to do it right.

Coby: So in is, I mean, the name of the game in marketing has always been break parody. That’s what you got to do. You got to break parody because you know, our brains are difference engines. You notice what’s different. Well, and if you can break parody either by having a radically different product, which in a competitive market, if you have a radically different product, a better funded competitor is going to come along and just copy what you do, right? So you just, you know, your innovation is just funding somebody else’s product roadmap, which is great. I mean, that’s that’s the consumer benefits when that happens. Great, right. The other way to break parody is to, I think how did you say it? Show up. I forgot how you said it earlier, but it doesn’t matter. Like essentially to hack who sees what when, right? Yeah. And and that’s all about the platforms on which you go search for that, that that’s that’s the sandbox that, that Google has provided. And so hacking the algorithm has been the name of the game for 15 years. And I know the folks at Google on the one hand are going, this sucks. And on the other hand are going, I love it because it’s just more money. People, you know, if they’re willing to hack it, they’re buying in. They’re all in.. But over time, they can’t deliver their value proposition, which is okay. So is is that what AI is now trying to do is keep people from hacking the algorithm?

Tyler: I don’t think so. Not yet. Like, I think I think a lot of people have definitely like hacked the algorithm. Yeah, so to speak. And I don’t honestly, I don’t think it’s caught up with them for the most part.

Coby: Really. Yeah.

Tyler: So I’ve actually been viewing it like if you’ve been in the SEO space for a long time, like I have, like we live from algorithm update to algorithm. Yeah, we know.

Coby: How often to the big ones, by the way.

Tyler: Every 4 or 5 months. Okay. Sometimes more often, sometimes less often.

Coby: Okay.

Tyler: But and then we analyze what happens after that algorithm comes out so we can know, hey, what what’s Google looking for now? What got penalized? What’s what’s working?

Coby: I feel like you can kind of like, see the redhead in The Matrix by just looking at the code. Yeah, you know what I’m talking about. Like, you can, like, is you okay? Anyway? Keep going.

Tyler: Well, I mean, literally Google their algorithm code got leaked, a year and a half ago. Oh, yeah. And that was that was a.

Coby: Makes me smile.

Tyler: Yeah. No, that was a wild time. But if you think about the, like, AI platforms, I think about those new models they come out with every like three months, six months, just like an algorithm update. I also think of their training dates sort of as algorithm updates. Some people might not know this, but ChatGPT just launched 5.1.

Coby: Okay.

Tyler: 5.1 is just just tweaked a little bit from five. And it’s supposed to like listen to you more. Yeah. Get more natural responses. The it was trained like its actual data set, the information it was trained on June 2024. So if you take a snapshot of the web from June 2024, in previous that’s what it’s trained on.

Tyler: That’s what it knows. That’s what it’s like built into its information system. Anything beyond June 2024, it has to go actively do a search cams and gather that information. Well, that costs a lot of money. Yeah, and they don’t like to do it when they don’t have to. So if you do think of these little snapshots they take of the web with their training set.

Coby: There’s latency.

Tyler: There’s latency for sure.

Coby: And so this is fascinating.

Tyler: Yeah I think the thing that brands need to keep in mind the most is like you need to move now. You can’t wait another six months or another 12 months because there’s already latency. Yeah. In the whole program. Okay. So if you know, if I’m a large brand and I start realizing that, 15 months ago, us is what gets trained into these models, right?

Tyler: You start thinking, how do I move faster? Oh, I love that right.

Coby: That’s a real competitive advantage to understand that.

Tyler: Yeah for sure. And I don’t I don’t think very many people understand it quite yet. But it will become more common knowledge.

Coby: And hopefully it reminds me, are you are you familiar with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle?

Tyler: I can’t say,

Coby: It’s a it’s a principle in physics. And it states that you can’t know the precise location and the precise velocity of a particle, to perfection. The more you know one, the less you know the other. Interesting. There’s an inverse proportionality. It’s just a rough, layman’s, terrible seventh grade physics version of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. But it reminds me of this in that, as the latency decreases, it only it, it will decrease. But it’s decrease fuels the acceleration of change.

Tyler: Interesting.

Coby: Right. So as a model remains static over a period of time, latency doesn’t matter as the model changes, latency become matters. You but the updating of AI feeds a whole new generation of content that’s updated. That then accelerates the change of the model itself. So it’s self-perpetuating. Does that make sense?

Tyler: Yeah. Interesting.

Coby: Maybe not as much. That was my attempt at trying to say I had to dig deep. I had to dig to high school physics to try to talk shop with you. I just want you to know that.

Tyler: That sounded a lot smarter.

Coby: Well, I mean, I if I’ve done nothing in my career, it’s I’ve, I’ve made a few dollars sounding smart, but certainly not being smart.

Coby: I get overwhelmed pretty easy with all of this, right? I get overwhelmed with the speed at which a lot of this stuff is being done and created and free and iterated and all that. And it’s easy. I mean, my head swims, I get a little freaked out. Yeah, right.

Tyler: So do business owners.

Coby: Yeah. It’s Coby. So T-Bone, where are we going today?

Tyler: We are going to swig.

Coby: Okay. And why swig? I mean, it’s a popular brand, I get it, but why?

Tyler: So my wife and I go there more often than I’d like to admit. Our addiction first started with sodalicious.

Coby: Okay, okay.

Tyler: And, one of my favorite drinks was the my jam.

Coby: Which was my jam.

Tyler: Doctor pepper, raspberry puree and coconut cream.

Coby: Ooh, that sounds amazing. Yeah.

Tyler: And then swig came along and expanded and it was way more convenient locations, all that stuff. Okay. And, so now I get the raspberry dream, which is a very similar drink. If not the same.

Coby: Exact same.

Tyler: Drink, but I get it with doctor Pepper zero.

Coby: Oh so it’s totally different.

Tyler: Because I have to watch my figure.

Coby: Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, we all do at this age, right? Okay. And so what does she get when she goes.

Tyler: She is a diet dew girl. I mean, I like that as well. Okay. So jolly elf. It has, like, fresh orange and raspberry puree.

Coby: That sounds really good, too.

Tyler: She likes the dirty little secret. Ooh. Which is.

Coby: Cool. I think I’ve heard of that one. What is that.

Tyler: Dirty little secret?

Coby: Okay.

Tyler: I don’t even remember what’s in it right now.

Coby: Well, I mean, true to the name, right?

Tyler: Yeah.

Coby: Okay. And what would you recommend that I get? I mean, I’m still kind of new to the dirty soda.

Tyler: Thing you could do. Are you doctor Pepper guy?

Coby: I’m a Diet Coke guy.

Tyler: Oh. I’m sorry.

Coby: I know. Everybody is.

Tyler: Yeah. You can you can still mix it in there. So the dirty little secret or the raspberry drain. All right. Good.

Coby: So I’ll try. All right, let’s do it. All right. Perfect. Nice. Is it good?

Tyler: That’s great. Yeah. Good job Swig.

Coby: Good job. Swig. Woohoo.

Tyler: Nationally known.

Coby: So I know I’m not alone. A lot of business owners feel the same way. Like what? If I had to put some cash on a monthly basis into a digital ad, spend, and I knew that there’s people out there hacking the algorithm, that would make me feel like, what’s the use in competing?

Coby: Yeah. Right. And so and I know Google’s got to be thinking the same thing.

Tyler: Yeah.

Coby: Right. So what are they doing to mitigate that and and and restore maintain maybe even perhaps restore confidence in, in their entire platform and not just from the SEO side, but from the paid side. I mean, like. Cost per clicks, cost per registration, just all the metrics are down while the spend goes up.

Tyler: Yep.

Coby: Right. And so there there is a confidence issue here. What are they doing? What do you see them doing? I mean, I know that you- so that’s the one question, but just I want to I also want to know, like I know. Didn’t you recently speak at Google?

Tyler: Yeah. We we were invited to the Google offices, for a client meeting. So we had a couple Google reps, that kind of hosted us there. And then we had full client QBR there, and.

Coby: I heard that they told you that you were taking them to school.

Tyler: They may have said something very similar to that. Yeah. It was pretty fun. And I mean, we’re talking to the paid team and and the paid team, right? There’s a little bit of separation of church and state within Google. But there are things that they can’t say about organic search, like they’ll lose their job if they do.

Tyler: Okay. But it’s really funny when, you know.

Coby: We can say it, because we don’t work there.

Tyler: There. Yeah, yeah. And and it’s, it’s funny when you get in a room and you say, hey Google, close your ears and, you know, you see them like, kind of laugh and smile. But they, they’ll often, just let us talk about that. Yeah. And then the business owners or CMOswe’ll go, is that right to Google? You know, to the Google reps? Is that right? Is that true? And that’s when they were like, yeah, this guy knows and stuff. You should listen. I was like, yes.

Coby: See that’s the other thing.

Tyler: My phone’s listening I love it.

Coby: I don’t know if I love it, but I it’s it’s they’re just kidding. Okay.

Tyler: It’s good timing as we’re talking about.

Coby: So so we’ve established that your, a PhD level. Fine. Great. But so the original question like what are they doing to mitigate this? What are they how are they restoring confidence? How they I mean, it’s the same question that we asked to drive thru like, they are still they’re still they are doing it, right?

Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s what these algorithm updates are about. Okay. Right. So every time, major algorithm update is launched, it is a that’s essentially them cutting spam out.

Coby: Okay.

Tyler: So and that’s what we analyze when the algorithm update comes out. Analyze data on which websites win which websites lose. A couple years ago, the website’s losing were the ones that were egregiously posting thousands of AI generated pages on our website. Right. And Google said, no, we don’t want to rank that. We don’t. That’s not for our user. Even though later they came out and said, hey, it’s not that active generating content via AI. Like that’s not against our, our standards, but how helpful content is part of our standards. So they continue to push the helpful content. Conversation. But I’ve never seen the results page move so fast and change so fast as I have in the last year, and I’ve been in the space since the late 2000, when it was like 2008 was when I started.

Coby: Yeah. Since essencially like the, the blue Mac, the blue bubble Mac. Yeah, right. That’s how.

Tyler: Yeah, honestly.

Coby: Yeah. I watched Training Day over the weekend, and I didn’t realize- when do you think that was directed or released?

Tyler: ‘03.

Coby: ‘01. Yeah, I would have said like 1516 I didn’t realize it was been it’s been 24 years or almost 25 years, but in one scene there’s a bubble, kind of like it’s an old show. I like it like that.

Tyler: Also, it’s age, that Denzel Washington.

Coby: Yeah. And he and he’s any I mean, he’s he always looks good. Yeah. I mean Ethan Hawke with Ethan Hawke. Looks like my 16 year old son, easy way, young looking. And. Yeah, they look they looked young.

Coby: Some. Yeah. Well.

Coby: It’s interesting that each update is Google cutting out the infection, as it were, right?

Tyler: Yep.

Coby: So how does how does I mean, maybe this is too technical a question, but how does Google, what criterion does Google use to determine if content has actual value? Is it click through? Is it time on page? Does it index something that’s got a really high time on page, an article or something. And then does it use that as a model against others or is it just say, okay, this site’s got 4 or 5 pages like this. It must be a great or 25 or 250 or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Tyler: They they use they do use click data. They do not or reportedly don’t use Google Analytics data. So it’s not the way that most are thinking of it. They use, click data within Google Chrome because they own that browser. Yeah. And it’s the number one use browser at least in the United States. And so they absolutely use dwell time click backs, click through rates, all that stuff to feed into their system of what they, what they rank and how high they rank it. Of course, there’s a ton of other factors in play. If you’ve ever, if you’ve ever heard of a search quality rater, they actually have a team of search quality raters that their entire job is to take, like this 90 page document of what what a quality website, what quality content looks like, all that fun stuff. And their job is to go as they they’re given a website, and their job is to go assess that website based on those quality rater guidelines. So strains the-

Coby: Algorithm. It’s a human doing it.

Tyler: It is isn’t it. And that trains the algorithm. So they they take the output from the notes and everything. They say that it’s not specifically for that website. They’re taking like all of the data and training the algorithm. But honestly, I think if they see something egregious enough on a website that is ranking down. Yeah, yeah, they’ll recommend it to be cut from the index.

Coby: So I have a personal mantra, that informs really certainly now my approach to, to brand development and within the umbrella of brand development, you go to Market Motion. Your content development content is just what I call going to the information marketplace, competing in the information marketplace. And then products and services competing in the product marketplace. And you got to compete and excel in the information marketplace before you can even have a chance to show up in the product or service marketplace. Right. But all of that is, is I put under the umbrella of this mantra that I is I just say all the time, you might have even heard me say it. People notice different, align to genuine and recommend delight. And I think from what I’m hearing, and because I’ve got a bias that holds in real marketing, real value long play is that am I just telling myself stories to make myself feel good or is that accurate?

Tyler: I think that’s 100% accurate, honestly. Like, I think what what users are experiencing right now is like fatigue, like target fatigue. Yeah. And crappy content fatigue. Right. Like if you open Instagram or TikTok or any of these others, you just see garbage, like your entire feed is full of garbage. And so I think we’re programing the user right now to be better than ever. Like filtering that out, filtering. And ultimately they’ll crave that like genuine.

Coby: Original.

Tyler: Original.

Coby: Authentic and creative.

Tyler: Yep. Messaging. Yep. So I think you nailed it for sure. Yeah, but it does sound good.

Coby: It doesn’t just sound good, although I’m glad it does because looking good is better than feeling, can you you know, the reference about. Oh, okay. Nobody nobody knows. The reference is an old SNL skit. I know, I can’t remember the guy. Billy. Billy crystal.

Tyler: Okay.

Coby: He was a he was just a little character. He did whatever. So what can folks do to become relatively immune to the hacking Google algorithm marketplace kind of play and and show up? Maybe it’ll take a little bit longer time. Yeah, but what can they do to show up authentically and get found by folks who want to see them?

Tyler: It’s a good question. What I’ve been telling people lately is, stop thinking about just today and start building what you want a year from now. Right? And so, my recommendation is stop looking for, like, the short term hacks. Start building your brand. Start actually speaking to your audience. No one starts a business because they don’t know how to solve a problem.

Coby: Right?

Tyler: They start the business because they’re solving someone’s problem, right? Right. So I, I think ultimately businesses who are good at solving people’s problems and, and talking about it online and portraying that online will win in the long term. And yeah, you might get beat out in the short term by some of these stupid little hacks. But but that’s not fun. We like the long term.

Coby: We like the long term. Yeah. Dude, this has been really freaking awesome. I really enjoyed this. We got to do this again. I, I love learning I came at this. My history is advertising not the performance side. So you know top of funnel bottom funnel I’m outside funnel I’m sort of very top like about ready to get poured in. And I’ve always looked at kind of mid and bottom funnel as As kind of hack in the system as opposed to showing up and breaking parity with product or breaking parity with message. It’s breaking parity with an understanding of the marketplace and then hacking the marketplace itself. And, you know, take my ball and go home. But, you know, you know, you don’t actually do any good if you do that. So you got to know the game to play the game. And then to outplay the people who are trying to cheat the game.

Tyler: Yep.

Coby: Right. We’re just cool. Thanks, man. Let’s get back to work.

Tyler: Yeah.

Coby: All right. So back. Thanks for the conversation. Totally loved it. Is it as good as you remember from, like, two days ago or yesterday?

Tyler: I may have done extra coconut cream today. So. Yes, it’s beautiful.

Coby: Beautiful. Well, I love mine. I forgot the name of it already. What was it called again?

Tyler: It’s the Rasberry dream. Yes.

Coby: Yeah it’s super good. And it’s fine with that cup. I think it’s awesome. Alright, well thanks for joining us and until next time.

Tyler: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Nicole: Thanks for coming along for the ride. If you enjoy, Sweet Takes, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. Join us next time. There’s more sweetness ahead.