Why the Brands That Break the Rules Always Win

Coby: Jared, you want to go get a drink?

Jared: Yeah, man. Let’s do it.

Nicole: Hi, it’s producer Nicole Denson, today we’re talking with Jared Strain, Brand Leader at Hawke Media and Co-Founder of Super Top Secret. Jared is a 20-year design veteran who has shaped the visual identity of global icons like global icons like Ghost, Prime, and Rossignol Snowboards. He’s an expert at building brand credibility and connecting products with the culture that surrounds them—from boutique packaging to international ad campaigns. He’s also a skater, a fantasy sports addict, and a self-described ‘butt-rocker’—so we’ve got plenty to dive into today. Back to the show.

Jared: No oversight, pure horse power. Not a responsible adult in sight.

Coby: That’s pretty much the story of my life. So, what’s new?

Jared: What’s new? Lots, of work. Super busy keeping my, plate full.

Coby: Nice. What are you working on right now that you like the most?

Jared: Oh, geez. Still doing a lot of work in, like, the health and sports nutrition area, so energy drinks, pills, and powders. Got some brands that are pretty exciting in the space.

Coby: That. Cool.

Jared: I’m stoked to roll out. Nice.

Coby: And snowboards.

Jared: And always snowboards. Always snowboards.

Coby: You getting any more lift on the 365 days of design snowboards? The skateboards or skateboards?

Jared: Yeah, no, not so much. I mean, every now and then I’ll kind of use as a case study for, design and evolution and process. But, yeah, it’s not really, like a tool much at all.

Coby: Every time I zoom in, I see it. That poster on the wall, though.

Jared: I know. Pretty cool. I. I find myself looking at just going, like, how the freak did I pull that off?

Coby: That’s really badass, man. So if you weren’t doing what you’re doing right now, what would you be doing? Like, you do anything. If you weren’t doing this, what would you be doing?

Jared: Thought about that a lot lately. I don’t know. I’m not really. I don’t. I don’t really have any other skills, and so I’ve tried thinking about what that might be. Pipe dream would be living off the land, just off the grid, Nobody around, just vegetables.

Coby: Wait, growing them or being them?

Jared: Uhhh growing them.

Coby: Oh, okay.

Jared: And being one. Like, slowly morphing into my own cucumber. My own carrot. How’s,

Coby: How’s skateboard life with Roman?

Jared: Rad. I mean, like, skateboarding is just kind of always. Always around this time of year. Kind of takes a little bit.

Coby: It gets cold, though.

Jared: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, we should be under snow by now, but, when you’re young, like he is, and others, they don’t mind slapping cold concrete, like, in the dead of winter.

Coby: So how, like, does he get hurt pretty severely on a regular basis?

Jared: No, you know, I.

Coby: I know you have been hurt.

Jared: Oh, yeah, Like, I’m. I’m destroyed.

I. I think there’s a certain level of education or learning that comes with skateboarding, and at some point, I’ll write a book with all these thoughts, but, you you learn how to fall. You learn how to take a hard slam. Obviously, you have, like, your protection, like helmets, knee pads, et cetera, and so with him, it’s a skill that is learned as much as just pushing a skateboard. Like how to go to your knees, how to save yourself.

Coby: Kind of like the judo of skateboarding,

Jared: Kinda. I mean, like, if, if you’ve been around skateboarding long enough and if you’ve watched enough, enough these athletes, you’ll see that they’ll do flips and they’ll, like, spin out of it and like, you’re just kinda like, how did he survive that?

Coby: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I. I have seen that.

Jared: But you do, like, you do have those moments where you’re not fully focused. And so something happens that’s completely out of the ordinary and unscripted, and kind of destroys you on different levels.

Coby: Breaks a clavicle or an arm. In your case, was it the arm that got broken last?

Jared: Wrists, wrist, shoulder, knees. Sounds like a song.

Coby: Oh, man. So what do you hate about what you’re doing right now?

Jared: What do I hate? Deadlines.

Coby: Yeah.

Jared: Clients with no vision. Clients with no trust.

Coby: Yeah.

Jared: I think that’s always kind of been the sweet spot. When you find a client that just puts their full trust into you and they have a good vision that you align with. That’s the secret sauce.

Coby: How do you earn that trust in order to. Because, I mean, a client, you can’t expect a client to just show up with bags of money and, you know, a blank slate and says, ‘what’s your vision for my life’s work?’ Like, you can’t.

Jared: Solid question. For me, and in my experience, you have to connect with them on a human level, like find some commonality, something that you’re both inch into, like, aligned with or like, passionate about. And it doesn’t have to necessarily be like, something that I’m necessarily passionate about, but you feel that when you hear that from them and you can buy into it and you start to, like, understand this world that inspires them. That in turn inspires. Inspires me.

Coby: Okay, that’s cool. What’s the first thing that you try to help a client understand when you bring them on, like, lesson number one, that maybe not that. Let me re-ask, what have you found they need to learn first in order to produce the kind of work, you know, that is in them and in their brand?

Jared: Um the first thing that I’m always kind of looking to uncover, is like, what. What drives them?

Coby: Yeah,

Jared: Like what. What is it that is like, fueling them to either, like, create this brand, launch this brand, reinvent a category or a space, and when you get it, when you uncover that and you kind of understand and it, it’s not financial. It’s not like, you know, the big reward in hopes of, of monetary gain, but it’s something that like, drives them as an individual. It’s kind of defined their entire life. And that bleeds into their perspective in the world and the product and what we’re trying to uncover. And so like, once we have a semblance of that driver, you, can leverage that.

Coby: Okay, that’s cool. That’s cool. So I have like a big question. I mean, we both come from the same space, right? And in order to maintain, you know, our ability to operate in that space, everything we do has got to be profitable. It’s got to generate profit because it’s always an investment. But I’ve always noticed, and I think that most people have been in this space for a long time or any time at all have realized that there’s kind of two ends of the spectrum. There’s the disruptive conceptual, creative that really establishes brand or what a brand is about, kind of the ways you’re talking about in traditionally difficult to measure ways. And then there’s the opposite end of the spectrum, which is kind of the blocking and tackling the data centric, the platform centric. Activities that are highly measurable. I’ve always felt they were less effective than maybe they were sold as. And also probably what’s being measured is not necessarily what is being what you think is being measured, you know, in performance marketing. But the real question is why is it so difficult to marry those two? Do you know, anybody that, that can effectively marry has effectively married those two?

Jared: Data disruption and brand and performance marketing. That’s the big question. I think everybody’s chasing it. And a lot of what I’m seeing in the industry right now is kind of pushing back against those historical like data insights. They’re like, well, the data says this and this is what we should do because it’s proven, the ones that break through, the ones that like truly break through and disrupt, don’t have never paid attention to that. Like, it’s an emotional, it’s an emotional connection to the brand or the story that they’re telling. And so like, as, you know, like, people buy into that and they want something different, they’re yearning for something different. And so, you know, the industry now, I think is wising up to that where being kind of taken out of the hands of sales and them kind of dictating like what is going to perform and what, shows, up in market and putting it back into those places where it is like an emotional decision.

Coby: Why do you think now? I mean, I have my own ideas as to why this discussion seems to be everywhere now. I mean, it’s always been one, but for the longest time it was, you know, let’s ditch brand for for these other performance activities or activities at bottom of funnel or whatever that, that we can measure and optimize. I mean, it’s just, I mean I, I get that if I’m in charge of a budget and I have responsibility for demonstrating that this budget achieves something to a board or to my, you know, spouse, if I’m a business owner, you know, which is way scarier, that it’s. I got to show that it did something. And so the default going there. I get it and whatever. But why do you think now? That hasn’t changed. But, but now folks are kind of really the pendulum swinging the other way and they’re not, they’re in, they’re incorporating and including the brand discussion more than I’ve ever seen in the last decade. And I’m wondering if you have any ideas to why now?

Jared: I think there’s a certain level of safety that comes with what the market has been saturated with and that’s why you kind of get one to the next. Everybody looks and kind of says the same exact thing.

Coby: I think that that’s been compounded by like an accelerated output from AI that sounds like, like a hollow piece of. Not even. Not even. It’s not a turd, it’s a hollow turd. Right? Like all the output, like AI output mostly, most like written content type of stuff, it just, it’s just mimicking what’s already. The market’s already saturated. That’s what I think.

Jared: My, my theory is because most performance marketing agencies, individuals, whomever, aren’t brand-led. Like they don’t think the way that brand builders typically do. And so with that they’re looking, you know, they’re coming in midstream mid funnel and they’re kind of going, well, this is performing. We’re just going to kind of keep doing that. I’ve had some other performance marketers straight up tell me, after we kind of get through brand strategy and brand ID and visual like product, we’ll hand off a beautifully built brand, like, here you go, here’s the playbook. You have messaging, you have your colors, your typography, all the things you need to do to show up in market the way that it’s intended to, to be on brand and be on strategy completely just throw that out the, the window day one. And they’re like, yeah, we’re just gonna, we’re just gonna test it and see for ourselves what’s gonna happen. But they’re not testing the brand, they’re testing their, their data insights. And so it’s not really, it’s not led by brand, it’s not dictated by brand, it’s not directed, emotionally. And so it falls flat. And so they start to measure one against the next like these hollow turds. Your word, which ..

Coby: I’ll own it,

Jared: one to the next. Like they’re, they’re all the same.

Coby: Yeah, yeah. And then, and then they a B test non consequential things. Yeah that like, and you know this got a 7% difference. Well, it could just be, I mean, like I don’t think that a lot of the things that, that are served up as insights are statistically irrelevant.

Jared: No, it’s subjective. Like, and maybe it’s not a large enough sample size or maybe it’s because these brands, these disruptive brands haven’t pressure tested like those kind of insights, but it comes back to like, we want to see more people or we want to see more diversity or we want, we don’t like blue. It’s just kind of commonalities that don’t really affect the needle. And to that point I think that’s why you’re having this kind of backlash of performance marketers that are now going like, well, data says this–

Coby: but it’s not reflected in revenue.

Jared: Yeah, yeah. And so when the client starts really uncovering the insights, they’re like, you wasted all this money, it didn’t do anything.

Coby: I know Liquid Death is a big like one of your favorite brands, right? You just loved it. I remember the first time I saw you drinking from a can years ago, before it really took off, before anybody knew about it. You were already on the wagon just because of, they were breaking all the rules. I think that folks that have followed the playbook for so long and then along comes somebody like Liquid Death who breaks all the rules, rewrites the rules and like, well wait, wait a second! That’s not supposed to work. And it works really well and they’re looking for that explanation. And the explanation is the playbook that you were going on was a way to play nice in Google’s or Meta’s sandbox. That assumes that Google or Meta want you to be successful. They want your money. They don’t care if you’re successful or they care you’re successful enough against parameters they define as success to keep giving them money. That’s what they care about. It’s like. Like, yeah.

Jared: I mean, it’s not the. It’s not the brand’s parameters. Like, how would you measure against something that doesn’t exist? That’s going to be contrary to what the industry is doing, like, with Liquid Death. Like, you’re looking at all the other, like, water bottle brands and kind of making some assumptions like that. But they showed up and they completely flipped it on its head. Put it in an aluminum can, death the plastic, hydrate or die. I mean, like, the messaging was

Coby: Beautiful

Jared: –aggressive, like, not. And I think that’s kind of why it resonated with me, because it felt

Coby: Because you’re a skater.

Jared: Like, this is. This is what skateboarders are …there’s a drive through. So I go around here. Yeah. All right. We’re doing it. We’re doing it. Doing it. Yeah, man, I like, this is the conversation we always have. Right. And. Well, let’s. Let’s hold on a sec.

[FLASHBACK to before driving away]
Coby: So what’s your pick today?

Jared: Square donut.

Coby: From where?

Jared: Lehi Bakery.

Coby: So why Lehi Bakery?

Jared: I’ve been going there since, like, 1986. It’s the best donut in the world.

Coby: Why? What makes it the best donut in the world?

Jared: The charm. It’s square, which is unusual. The mix. I don’t know, the way they bake them.

Coby: Which one did you go to first?

Jared: The one on Main Street.

Coby: Is that the original one?

Jared: The OG like, used to be up until about a few months ago. But yeah, it was like OG flower caked on the floor. Hadn’t changed since, like, mid-80s.

Coby: Nice. So, do you remember the first time you ever went?

Jared: Yeah, I must have been seventh grade when Lehi Junior High used to be on, just off Main Street. We’d walk over there, like, every day. I’d get, like, a bear claw. Enough sugar to kill a small horse, get me back into school and through the day.

Coby: So your. Your high marks in math because of Lehi Bakery?

Jared: That might have been the downturn of my math career.

Coby: Yeah, I’ve heard you talk about your math career before.

Jared: We can. We can bring that back up.

Coby: Cool.

Jared: That’s why I do what I do.

Coby: So what are we getting?

Jared: Square donuts.

Coby: Yeah, but, like, what flavor?

Jared: Glazed.

Coby: Just like the OG?

Jared: Straight glazed. Oh, yeah, that’s glazed. That’s the benchmark that’s what you base. Like, all your dish decisions with donuts off. Yeah. And then you go from there, like, all right, then we can deviate into, like, some maple bars.

Coby: And so if they can do the square or if they can do the glazed donut, then. Then that’s where, like, okay, this. They meet the bar. Now I’m gonna. Now I’m gonna try some

Jared: 100% Like, if you have a good glazed donut, everything, it sets a standard for, like, the entire place.

Coby: They’re the best glazed donut around.

Jared: Up there. Up there. Top three. If not. If not, number one. I. I waffle.

Coby: Well, I know, because I remember back at. Back when death and taxes days, there was a place across from.

Jared: There’s a place up in Salt Lake that’s pretty good. My other. My other spot is in Seattle. I haven’t been there for a few years, but, like, it’s top three.

Coby: Yeah. So if it wasn’t glazed, if they had no more glazed, what would be your second go to indicator donut of

Jared: Maple bar.

Coby: Maple bar. I didn’t even have to finish the question.

Jared: No, it’s like, glazed maple bar. I don’t even know what’s after that.

Coby: Cruller.

Jared: No, man. Like,

Coby: Whaaat?

Jared: That’s not my thing. You’ve been talking about cruisers for, like, 20 years.

Coby: Cruelers are the greatest.

Jared: I’ve had, like, one in my entire life.

Coby: I love cruelers.

Jared: Overrated.

Coby: Dude. Like, I don’t even know how we’re friends.

Jared: This might be the moment.

Coby: Hall & Oates. Crullers. I think that says everything.

Jared: I was listening to Hall & Oates on the way over just to, like, up my spirit.

Coby: That’s okay. I was listening to Sturgill Simpson, so that’s what it is. All right, well, okay. Looking forward to this. We’ll get to it.

Jared: Okay.

Coby: All right.

Jared: You know, it’s funny, the question that’s always posed to me. After we roll out these brands and they kind of grow and become. Become visible of, like, how do you quantify a brand? Like, that question has come up more times than I care to admit. You’re like, well, what was the client’s ROI? And on the brand? I’m like, I don’t know. Like, Ghost. They sold for $4 billion. So how do you. How do you quantify that? Or even, like, just the. The strategy of it. There’s a lot of factors that go into it, obviously, like sales and, you know, their own marketing, etc. But I think most brands are looking down the road to really, like, have that Return.

Coby: Uh huh

Jared: And interestingly enough, like a lot of those brands where that question doesn’t come up and it’s just pure, purely emotional are the ones that aren’t even thinking about that. You know, it’s the ones that are problematic, that don’t have a vision, that are just kind of doing it for like a quick flash in the pan, put some money in their pocket. They want to understand the value of what they’re paying for.

Coby: I agree. I think the question, you know, what is my return on this? Which under the guise of good business, is, the wrong question and is actually not good business. But the real question is, what is good business? I think good business is providing an opportunity for your, customer, the market, whoever, to discover something about themselves through your product or service. That’s the best business. That’s the only real value is self discovery. I call it delight. You’re not going to help them discover something about themselves doing the exact same thing that everybody else is your market or in your industry or in your vertical or whatever is doing.

Jared: Right

Coby: Like, you, you have an opportunity to bring a unique perspective into somebody’s life story, into, into their, into their story, and to be a catalyst for change in their life in some way. And, and to go, well, what’s my return on that? Well, go, you know, go suck a lemon, right? Because like, I get, like, why, you know, if you start out with that understanding, then you’re going to, you’re going to think in terms of liquid death or in terms of Starbucks mentioned or, you know, in terms of fill in the blank, disruptive unicorn. Because it’s not about, oh, here’s the great cash opportunity because everybody else is doing it and they’re just not doing it well, it’s that, here’s a great opportunity to serve the market and elevate the market, maybe even create a new market. And when you’re the only one in the market, that’s where the unicorn status comes. And then everybody starts following you. I mean, that’s what you want. You can’t get people following you if you’re already following someone else.

Jared: No, I mean, like, brands are asking you as a consumer to like, join their community. Right. And if you’re not providing them with like, that sustenance, like to be compelling enough to move from one tribe to the next, of course you’re not going to move that needle.

Coby: Yeah. What’s something that you believed about all this a couple of years ago that you don’t believe anymore?

Jared: What do I believe that I no longer do? Early in my career because it was primarily like on product and it wasn’t like truly brand building. I didn’t see the value in messaging to like different audiences and the understanding that there’s different audiences even inside of your own consumer demographics.

Coby: What, what changed your mind? I’m really like. And where’s the timing here? I’m really interested to know this.

Jared: I mean you did like 100% but. Yes, but really that comes with being surrounded by capable creative copywriters. And that was one thing that I didn’t have like at the first part of my career where I’m like, oh, when you begin to marry like art and copy with messaging, that’s, that’s the sweet spot. You can have that line, that little piece of copy sit on black and white and it, it’s going to perform, it’s going to resonate as much as all the colors of the rainbow and all the pictures and all the things.

Coby: You know. I remember when I, my first job in advertising right out of school in San Francisco, working at Gray Global, working on new biz. We were pitching Cisco Systems. And I don’t even remember. I think his name was Brandon. I don’t even remember the name because when I say Brandon, I think Brandon Romer, who’s a buddy of ours. Right. But I think that, but he was, he was basically an intern just like me, you know, or we were, we were interns with slightly better titles, but that’s what we were. But he, he had aspirations of copywriting. And I got mentored into advertising by at the time a fairly big name in advertising. And so I kind of had his ear. I was friends with him and I hung out with his kids. I was a friend of the family. And so this, let’s call him Brandon comes to me and he’s like, you know, I’ve been working on a book, a portfolio, of just brands I made up. One of them was Hebrew. Like just a beer, right. But in the play and you know, I’m pretty, I’m a young LDS kid, never drank. So like that was a totally novel name and concept to me. But I’m sure that it was like the. But like it’s. I’m sure it wasn’t novel, but to me it was. But regardless, his writing about it, like he wrote some ads and I remember reading specific. I don’t even remember what it was anymore. I couldn’t remember the line. I couldn’t tell you. But I remember how it made Me feel. I read this line and I thought, this line has its own personality. This line has its own life. This line is an independent thing. It has a life unto itself. Because it was beautifully written. It was a complete thought and a statement. It was like eight words or seven words. But just the arrangement of words was in a way that I’d never arranged words such that they all sang and were harmonious in my mind. Right? Like, it was like, wow, that’s. That’s what good writing.

Jared: Yeah. It’s emotional. Like, that’s amazing. And that’s. That’s what performance marketing as an industry I think has gotten away from.

Coby: Because. And I agree with you because. And I hear this all the time. You know, it’s. It’s just a headline. It’s just a headline. Or, you know, there’s only so much you can do with 42 characters or whatever. There’s only so much you can do with two sentences or with. This kid could do a hell of a lot with eight words. And so my answer to that is, well, there’s only so much you can do with two sentences. But let me show you what I can do with eight words. And it’s a totally different. And it just. And then, you know, unless those eight words are really good, then I end up putting my foot in my mouth. But sometimes they’ve been good.

Jared: I– I’ve seen that more often than I haven’t. Like I was in, I was in a boardroom up in Seattle, pitching a large, not even pitching. We were working like this was an engagement. We’re working on a, hotel, boutique hotel chain like across the nation. And they were coming in, you know, they kind of lost our way. And we were cleaning up some of their brand came in. First, round of messaging. The. The owner. The woman jumped out of her seat. She’s like, F-Yeah! And the entire room was just electric.

Coby: Yeah.

Jared: And it. It was magic. And I’ve seen that with talented copywriters that are able to take like a big idea and distill it down to like two or three words where it’s consumable. It still has like that emotional impact.

Coby: It has even more because it’s the focus. I know. It becomes a scalpel right to the heart.

Jared: The funny how the. The funny thing about that. The other side of this story was right after that, it was my turn to get up and start to talk about creative. We’re jumping into mood boards and I’m like, this. This is going to be a piece of Cake. After that, they’re like, stoked. They’re like, so excited. I get up and it turned into a fist fight. This, this woman was like, how dare you come in here and talk about, like, undoing all this work that I’ve built my career off. Like, I’ve missed my kids baseball games and all. I’m like, this is just mood. This is just hypotheticals.

Coby: This is just stuff I saw.

Jared: Yeah, maybe you’d like. It’s hard to, it’s hard to illustrate like that, that emotional benefit because it’s so abstract. But when you have something tangible, like a word that you understand the meaning behind and it resonates and it connects like magic.

Coby: Right? Well, you know, marketing is the art of trying to break parity in the market with features and functions and product, utility and advertising is breaking parity in the market through the intangibles that at the end of the day are so much more compelling and are all based on the stories that your audiences tell themselves about your products or services and their utility.

Jared: For the longest time, I considered marketing to be somewhat of a dirty word. Like a lesser than. Yeah. You know, when it comes to, to like brand and advertising. And until you have that moment that where the light bulb goes off and you’re like, this is. Marketing’s the point. Marketing’s the point of like, why we do what we do with strategy and brand is to market and to advertise. And so I think in many ways, like, that industry, like this industry, is kind of changing their tune because you have the outliers, like the liquid deaths and the others that like their brand led, they’re taking creativity, then they’re pushing it into like marketing funnels in a completely different way.

Coby: Right.

Jared: Like, I look forward to getting like their, their email marketing because they’re so unusual.

Coby: It’s kick ass. And it’s not, hey, you want water? We have water. Come get our water. It’s totally different now.

Jared: It’s. It’s a different perspective. It’s like I sold my. I literally sold my soul to liquid death for some redeemable points. It’s absurd, you know, but like,

Coby: so you can get even the, even the deadlier water.

Jared: Yeah, like some of the, the tactics really haven’t changed much over the years and,

Coby: they’re just done with some chutzpah.

Jared: Yeah, it’s like they put some emotion, they put like a fresh perspective on it. They put a spin on it and it cuts through. And that to me is the exciting part of branding is like taking and organizing and having a toolbox that you can play from that inspires and it gives somebody to kind of rethink and refresh and kind of reinvent how that shows up in those channels.

Coby: I think that you know, I just want to say because you, you, you like most creatives that I’ve had the pleasure of working with. I mean you know my process. Find out what drives and motivates behavioral drivers and all that kind of stuff. But. And novelty is a relatively low driver on the on, on the list of powerful drivers. Pretty low on the hierarchy. And, and yet it speaks to how all of us like of course we’re all different but how certain personality types that I would say are certain people or personalities that have similar behavioral driver profiles or psychographic profiles end up in the same types of careers. New like, dude, that’s never been thought of or done before is maybe the most the best compliment that you can be paid. Right. And same with me, like that’s. That I’ve never seen that before is, is tantamount to saying you’re the sexiest man on the planet.

Jared: But it’s also scary. I think that’s kind of going back to the idea of like why brands don’t.

Coby: Well that’s my think that way is

Jared: Like yeah, it’s like it’s safe.

Coby: They’re like we’ll just do this because, because it’s an investment thing. But so the passion but the, but the going back to the whole discover something like your opportunity as a business is to drive self discovery in your customers. That’s that same new. Like that new. That’s an escape. It’s a bit of discovery, it’s delight. And brands that can do that either because they go to market in a complete outrageous way like liquid death or if they help you understand yourself a little bit better like I mean honestly that’s what Nike does for me. Like the Nike messaging and all about resolve and just do it or especially the find you’d greatness campaign. I mean how many times have you seen me break that up and I start to cry in a business meeting because it’s so like that transcends any actual consumer motion and it becomes a discovery motion about myself. And I think that that necessary element is also the very scary one is the component that leads to market leadership. Right?

Jared: Mhm

Coby: Last question. What’s your number one piece of advice for businesses that, that want to make a run at disruption?

Jared: Listen. Listen to your gut, listen to those around you. Don’t be afraid.

Coby: Don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid. Every single story that we love in business, every, like, rags to riches or I want to be like that brand or whatever. It just mimics the, in, in spite of the odds, in spite of the fear, there was the courage and there was the go, right?

Jared: I, I, they need to listen. Because, like, I think obviously brands, companies, people come to individuals like us for a very specific reason. And the minute that they stop listening to either experience or a different perspective, you’re just, you’re essentially a tool at that point just to kind of do whatever they think is in their best interest instead of, like, just considering, like, consideration for a different way of showing up.

Coby: Can you think of a time when, you don’t have to do it by name, but you were, you knew it needed to be this way. You, like, had, like, all the stars aligned and the client’s like, nope. I, I can think of one that we worked on together. The resort.

Coby: Oh, You know, that’s funny. I was thinking about that 20 minutes ago. I’m like, I still have, like, that, that blue sky like that

Coby: in the sun. It’s gorgeous, man.

Jared: I know.

Coby: So insanely beautiful.

Jared: Sad. That, I mean, it’s good that we were kind of put through that process with them and with, like, that, that team, I mean, it only kind of reinforced, like, my perspective. They’re like, yeah, they came back with the data and the statistics of, like, the other campaigns and like, oh, according to data, blah, blah, blah. And, it wasn’t emotional. It was just kind of like what everybody else was doing in that space and completely, expected. It was heartbreaking. But the, the one, like, the solution that we were excited about, I still dream about that. Like, I still, it’s burned in my brain. It’s so visual. It’s with the copy and the messaging that we had, it had, like, that connection.

Coby: We should just resurrect it and just go back to him and say, hey, this is still on the table. I bet we could. All right. Hey, thanks for the time, man.

Jared: Of course. This was fun. No coffee, but.

Coby: No coffee, but that’s okay.