The Nervous System of Leadership: Why Leaders Need Therapy

Lately, I already went on a little bit of a rant on LinkedIn about this. Organizations, uh, leaders should be in therapy.

Coby: Want to go get a drink?

Zach: Yeah

Coby: All right, let’s do it, Zach.

Nicole: I’m Producer Nicole Denson, and today we’re talking with Zach Haycock, VP of Revenue at Big Leap. Zach is a digital marketing veteran who has onboarded over a thousand clients throughout his career. He’s an expert in customer acquisition and making complex marketing strategies ‘make sense’ for executive teams. He’s also a self-proclaimed Disney adult—but today, we’re focused on business. Back to the show.

Coby: Ah I was in St. George in the last three, two weeks out of the last three and I’m going for Christmas with the kids and the folks and the older I get, the, the more time I spend down there.

Zach: Yeah.

Coby: Or on the coast, really. Down there. I don’t get to the coast as much. Where’s your favorite place to visit?

Zach: Hmm. I mean, sticking with the theme, anywhere that’s warm, but Florida. Uh. I actually have hated LA.

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: But the last couple times I’ve been there, it’s been a lot of fun. So maybe, Maybe LA.

Coby: Freak. I like LA.

Zach LA and San Francisco I know people crap on California but.

Coby: I lived in San Francisco.

Zach: Oh, yeah?

For a couple years.

Zach: Oh what part?

Coby: In the city. So I lived in the city and then I, uh, moved out to Concord, just on the other side of Walnut Creek in the East Bay for a bit of time, too. My commute into an ad agency in the city was, was shorter from Walnut Creek via BART than it was from the Sunset via the Muni. And that’s only like five miles or something like that. Maybe.

Zach: Wild! Yeah, yeah. We were there for the inbound conference. It was just scootering everywhere because. So much faster than cars.

Coby: Next Inbound conference. I’m going with you guys. I’m so down.

Zach: I already told Dallas that.

Coby: Oh, uh, he. Did he tell you that?

Zach: He was like, Coby wants to come to Inbound. That’ll be awesome.

Zach: Yeah, yeah. Let’s get a bigger crew there, and I think more impact. Right?

Coby: I love working with him.

Zach: Good dude.

Coby: Um so uh, what’s the latest and greatest that you’re working on as the VP of Revenue at Big Leap?

Zach: Yeah, I think what I’m most excited right now for is just filling gaps, um, as we move more towards kind of brand-led and getting really into more high-level strategy with clients, getting more capabilities in-house that we can help execute on and create some cohesion for our clients around. It’s just already having a huge impact. So excited to continue those efforts.

Coby: What do you like least about what you’re doing right now?

Zach: Um. I think this is probably a pretty basic answer, but it’s pretty. Probably not knowing how to prioritize.

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: Uh. And not knowing what to let go of or, you know, just the, uh, where. Where can you have the best kind of Impact based on your skill set?

Coby: Yeah. Like personally or just as, as an organization or both?

Zach: I’d say both, actually. Yeah. Something I’m not great at in my personal life either.

Coby: Oh, um, what are you seeing that nobody else is lately?

Zach: Lately, I already went on a little bit of a rant on LinkedIn about this, but, um, I’m kind of feeling that organizations, leaders should be in therapy,

Coby: Ooo

Zach:, or if not therapy, something in their personal life that makes them look inward, think about their thoughts, think about the way they conduct themselves and do things. Um. And kind of the diatribe or version of that is I really think your leadership structure is like the nervous system of your organization. Right.

Coby: Yeah,

Zach: It’s a. If you have one leader that’s a little out of whack, then it really can have this compounding effect. So yeah, whether it be a life coach, a therapist, really great spouse, something that makes you turn inward and think about, um, you know, all those parts of you. The main, you don’t learn knowledge.

Coby: Do you think leaders are averse to that?

Zach: Um. I think it’s telling if they are.

Coby: Yes. I think that’s a really good answer. Um. Go ahead. Sorry.

Zach: Yeah, no, I’m like, I, I think people have a natural apprehension or fear of therapy maybe, but emotions can be scary. I get that, you know, but. Yeah.

Coby: Have you seen, like, I mean, you don’t call out clearly like a person or a client, whatever, but have you, have you seen leaders successfully navigate things because they’re in therapy? Like, is this, is this informed by experience or what experience has informed this opinion?

Zach: Yeah, I think, you know, everyone has an ego, and I think it’s incredibly difficult to diminish your own ego unless you’re putting in the work. Um. I have definitely come across leaders in my career that hadn’t put in the work and hadn’t learned about their ego, hadn’t confronted maybe those pieces of them or parts of them that were unregulated or even based on trauma. If we maybe not getting too deep, but we’re all a product of our experiences. Right?

Coby: Right.

Zach: So I think uncovering how those experiences have shaped you, how those are can, you know, leading to, uh, your ego, um, exploring that’s important. So I think that manifests in the way of leaders that have a desire to control first, um, and ask questions second, or think that their way is the right way and don’t know how to take, take in information from a lot of places and have a really good kind of, uh, multi-tiered view of something. So yeah, I could talk on that one for an hour. Um.

Coby: Do you have, again, you don’t have to name them if you don’t want to, but are there examples of leaders in your career, either past or present, uh, that. That have maybe created the standard by which you judge other leaders because they do the things that you see need to be done?

Zach: Yeah, I think the two examples that come to mind are maybe the first example I had as a good example of this was actually my own father. You know, I think he has his faults, as everyone does, but he’s aware of them, and he looks at him, he acknowledges them, you know, and he then is able to create other strengths around him based on where his lack perhaps. Right? Um. I think Bryan Phelps, of Big Leap. Right?

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: Um. Such a good example of that.

Coby: I would, I would totally agree with that.

Zach: Yeah. That knows how to hear everybody in the room and then still have some resolve on the direction. Yeah, yeah, those are two good examples.

Coby: You know what James told me once about Brian, uh, pretty early on, I actually brought this up in front of Bryan with Jared at lunch a couple days ago.

Zach: Sure.

Coby: I, I, uh, just right in front of him, I thought, why the hell not? I said, uh, One of the first conversations I had with James ever, when I came on was he said “I add ten pounds to everything. Bryan says.”

Zach: Yeah, I can see that.

Coby: And I was like, amen. Because his delivery style is very low-key. It’s not sensational in any way. Right. Um. And he doesn’t try to be self-deprecating as a way of masking something. He’s not trying to do anything other than just kind of show up, kind of regular guy or at least position it and kind of speak to it as a regular guy. Even though you know, he’s put a ton of thought and a ton of analysis. I mean, the guy analyzes everything. Right? And super, super smart. And um.

Zach: So when he does speak, though, it’s well-informed.

Coby: It’s well informed, but it’s not like, hey, I’m well informed, so listen. Or I’m going to use words that compel you. Or there’s no tricks, there’s no gimmicks. It’s the same way he had. He built a business. It’s just like, you know, this is what I see and this is what it is.

Zach: Yeah he guides the ship rather than trying to.

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: Totally agree with that. I think that’s like, you know, the other, the other piece of that. I think you can tell if somebody’s kind of put in the Work to think, think about their thoughts and all that. If they make you feel seen too. Like, that’s hard to do. It’s hard to, like, really make someone feel like you understand them and that they’re seen. And I, I joke all the time that I never thought I’d be at any organization for more than two or three years. Yeah. And I’m pushing now nine, ten years just because maybe, maybe that alone. Right. Uh. Being led by somebody that understands their ego keeps it in check and also makes people feel seen.

Coby: It’s an interesting. Yeah, I think I can draw parallels in my career as well. I mean, I think we’re all kind of sometimes shouting to be seen. I once had an old business partner after meetings with some, um, line of business, uh, leaders at Microsoft, and we were presenting some courseware that we put together for their ERP practice in their channel. Uh. And he’s a good friend of mine, and after I hung up, he says, why is it so important for you to get heard? And it was a really direct question. I was like, what do you mean? And he goes like, it’s just, it was so clear that you just needed to be heard instead of trying to listen. And, and it was, you know, I’d like to say it was fairly early in my career, but it was later in my career than it should have been.

Zach: Sure

Coby: …that I needed somebody that I trusted to come to me and say, uh, your fly’s down and it’s time you looked at that.

Zach: Yeah

Coby: You know,

Zach: So important having people around you that can call out your blind spots, right? Yeah, in a way. That’s kind of what we’re talking about here, right?

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: Yeah. Like, where are your blind spots? How do you figure out what they are? Own them so you can be aware of them moving forward.

Coby: Okay. So how was your, um, how was your diatribe received on LinkedIn?

Zach: Um. Good. I think I had some good commentary. Good, good teams, good conversations that were started. Uh. Some people that disagreed a little bit.

Coby: Really?

Zach: You know, it’s interesting fighting against therapy, but I was going as far as to say that, um, you know, there’s organizations that have even started hiring therapists and whatnot on staff or, um, at least letting people expense those types of things. I think it’s one of the best investments you can make into your leadership team is figuring out how to get them again, if not therapy, something that’s going to support the idea of, ah, figuring out where their blind spots are, you know, how they’re, um, maybe contributing to a lack of growth. Within the organization,

Coby: You know, there is the opening, the can of worms. Whole thing, though.

Zach: Yeah.

Coby: You know, you start going down that path. And as one who has been in therapy for a very long time, um, like the first few years, things don’t necessarily get better.

Zach: Sure.

Coby: They get worse.

Zach: Yeah. Because you’re confronting all those things.

Coby: Yeah. It’s even harder recognizing that everything that you’re looking at is a mirror.

Zach: That’s the hard part. Oh, wait a second. Life is a mirror. It’s gonna bring up everything you’re, you know.

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: Not wanting to see sometimes. Um.

Coby: What do you think is the number one? Not number one, but maybe the first benefit, the first sign if you had to look from an external. These are two different questions, but this is kind of fascinating thing. If. If that you have. If. So you’re looking at an organization. What’s the number one telltale sign you think that. That the leadership in that organization is involved in some sort of, um, self awareness work?

Zach: I think the most obvious sign of that, and I’d be curious to get your take on this one too. But the most obvious sign of that to me is conflict. How is conflict handled?

Coby: Oh, I like that.

Zach: If there’s a big disagreement, is the problem about the problem or is it about the other person? Is it, um, this person just can’t get on board and they’re a stick in the mud and they just need to get on board with the plan because it’s well researched and I understand it and. Or is it, hey, they disagree and I have a blind spot here. So let’s talk about it, you know.

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: Let’s have a conversation about the problem, not about why my thought process is superior to theirs. And so they should get on board.

Coby: Yeah. So

Zach: You can be the most competent person in the world. Right.

Coby: But you can still be wrong about something.

Zach: Yeah. And you still don’t have all the data. You. You still might have a blind spot. I don’t know.

Coby: So in other words, the argument or the debate or the challenge or the discussion is about is on the level of the subject matter of the discussion, the debate or whatever. It is not a proxy for something else that’s going unspoken.

Zach: Yeah. Or it’s being able to like, call those things out, I think, effectively without it flaring up someone’s ego.

Coby: Mmm.

Zach: Like, I don’t know. I’ve been in. I’ve been in situations early in my career too, where it’s like you bring up something to solve as a group or a leadership team, and then it kind of devolves into this. Well, but you’ve done this before and like a kind of a pointing fingers rather than um, a solution-oriented discussion.

Coby: Yeah, I get that.

Zach: I’m curious your take on that one, though.

Coby: Dude. I mean I love, I love this and I, and I agree. It actually hits kind of a nerve. It’s kind of a deep thing. Like my approach to brand, um, is, has always been kind of an academic one and has always. Let m. Me, let me. I think private enterprise is potentially the greatest force for good in mankind. And I think that the role of business is to provide a customer, um, the opportunity for self-discovery. That’s the highest value that you can provide. That’s the value you provide to the market. Um. And you know, that definition might not fit, um, lots of consumer situations. I mean I think it fits psychologically. I think it fits very much. But you know, like how is toilet paper helping me discover something about myself? Like, I get that. So like there’s the utility of a product or service and then, and then there is the value. It’s what that utility means. Right? And um, I think when you get into what does the utility mean, not just what it does, but what does, how it does or what does the thing it accomplishes mean? To me that becomes where the kind of the real value is. That’s that, that touches on the stories that we tell ourselves about a product or service, about what will be different if we, if we did this or that or whatever, we bought this and it changed this or whatever. Right. And so um, I look at the business motion as fundamentally an opportunity for self discovery externally. And in engaging in that, like in your, you’re offering a catalyst to create that change in the market. You can’t create a change that you have not yet undergone yourself.

Zach: Sure. Yeah. Well said.

Coby: Uh. So you know, Starbucks, Starbucks goes to market with the idea that coffee is art and that the drinking of coffee together is a tribal ritual that brings folks together. And so uh, and part of that, and that it’s an experience. So part of that is let’s bring the back kitchen part of the making the coffee. Let’s bring that into the experience in the cafe.

Zach: See the art.

Coby: Let’s see the art. Let’s see the tools of the art. And let’s hear the tools of the art. And let’s call the artist, you know, a barista. Let’s, let’s, let’s elevate the role of the artist in this daily ritual that we all partake in.

Zach: Right.

Coby: He couldn’t have done that unless he’d seen that before when he went to Europe and said, oh, this is how it’s done in Europe. I want to do this, I want to replicate this in the United States. Now you could look at that as, oh, that’s service delivery, that’s product delivery. Or you could look at it in terms. It’s right here, right?

Zach: Yeah.

Coby: Uh. Okay, you look at it in terms of, well, what’s really happening. What is the coffee then like a catalyst for? And it’s a catalyst for something that’s I think, a lot more meaningful than, you know, making sure I have my morning constitutional and I can be up for the morning meeting.

Zach: Right.

Coby: Um. You can’t. So where that all comes to what you asked, you can’t really, I think, approach business that way if you’re constantly in need of just grabbing the cash. I mean there’s. If your hair’s on fire and you want to put it out and, and you like run into a convenience store and you’re like, I need something, I need. My hair’s on fire, my hair’s on fire. And somebody says, well, what, you want Coke? You want Diet Coke? You want Sprite? Like we can, we have bottled water. You know, you don’t care. You really gotta

Zach: get the fire out.

Coby: And so it’s informing everything. And I think that with business, lots of folks, I think their hair is on fire and they gotta put that hair, they gotta like kind of quench that before they can really. Does that make sense?

Zach: Yeah, no, it does, yeah.

Coby: Ah. I rambled a lot. We’re going to cut all that out.

Zach: I mean my, I actually have a follow-up question to that one. It’s a, what’s, uh, an indicator for you that a business has actually done that successfully?

Coby: Um. Well, there’s, there’s a lot of indicators.

Zach: Yeah, but, but is it like a feeling that you have when you think about the brand?

Coby: Like, you know, I used to, used to think if they weren’t going to listen to me, they just weren’t interested and that that was the wrong way looking at it because, you know, they could be. But my way of doing it probably just was kind of Greek to them or just didn’t really speak to them. Um. That’s a really good question. A really good question.

Zach: Like, uh, you could think about brands, I think, and maybe grasp the idea of that. I, uh, mean, you talk about a few here and there, but I don’t know, like, I don’t know why like Delta popped into my head. You think about let’s go places, you know? Huh. And that’s something that stays with you. It feels like a brand that actually does understand that and it resonates with the audience. I think, overall, a little bit of a loyalist, I guess, when it comes to that, but I’m a loyalist for a reason. Right.

Coby: Yeah. I have noticed brands that are more interested in the impact that they can drive than the dollars that come from that impact, you know, which flies in the face of all. Like, this is business thinking. But I think that I do, because invariably, you can either if you compete in a market, you will dilute the market, but if you serve the market, you will elevate the market or create a completely new market. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen, in all my study in the 25 years I’ve been studying brand and I’ve ever seen an example where that’s not held true.

Zach: Yeah.

Coby: All the clients that at Big Leap, those that seem to be truly interested in the conversations that we want to have with them. Right. Um. Are the ones. Well, to be fair, they’re the ones that we have access to. I think probably more than just the ones we’re having the conversation with would like to have these kinds of conversations, but we often don’t have access to those that feel they can have that kind of conversation.

Zach: Sure.

Coby: They’re middle managers and. And have some pretty, um, compelling motivation to nail this piece right before, you know, because they can’t really worry about some of these other things. But it’s a risk, too, right?

Zach: It is a risk to, like, advocate for this type of conversation.

Coby: And it is.

Zach: I mean, it’s someone’s internal credibility online if it doesn’t go well. Right. So, yeah, it’s definitely maybe a risk-avoidant person that doesn’t want to engage in that way, or to your earlier point that, like, just cares more about the cash and the money over the impact

Coby: or the safety that the cash and the money represent. Because there’s the story, well, I’ll do this. How many times have you heard, I’ll do this? And when we’ve got this now and then we’ll have the time and the bandwidth and the resources to do this other thing. It never happens. Yeah. Uh.

Beany’s Employee: Hi.

Coby: Hi. How are you?

Beany’s Employee: Good. How are you?

Coby: Good.

Coby: Okay. So, uh, Zach, where are we going today?

Zach: We are going to Beanies, um, because it has great coffee.

Coby: Okay.

Zach: Gone there for two years. Awesome coffee. Best coffee, I think, in Utah.

Coby: Nice.

Zach: And if I’m going to keep up with you in a conversation. I need some caffeine.

Coby: Well, I mean, I do do a 44 ounce before 6am every morning,

Zach: So I’ll be getting one myself.

Coby: Um. So you’ve been going there for two years. Yeah. Do you remember the first time you went?

Zach: I do. Yeah.

Coby: So tell me about it.

Zach: Like vanilla latte. Okay. My spouse is a Starbucks connoisseur.

Coby: Okay. And I think beanies is better.

Zach: We have a little argument most mornings.

Coby: All right, nice. So you’re getting the signature vanilla today.

Zach: Signature vanilla latte.

Coby: Okay. Have you ever tried anything else?

Zach: Um. Yeah, actually, everything I’ve tried there has been phenomenal.

Coby: Okay. I’m super excited. I’m a coffee newb. It was Diet Coke for years and years and years.

Zach: Sure

Coby: Love it now. But, um, whenever I go in, I don’t know how to order it, so I feel like a total fool. So you’re going to tell me how to order a good coffee.

Zach: Done.

Coby: Yeah. Okay. Um. All right.

Coby: Oh, that’s magical.

Zach: It’s pretty good, right?

Coby: That’s freaking magical.

Zach: I go, I go non fat because it is a little sweet.

Coby: But, uh, yeah.

Zach: Oh, uh, but a little sweet to me is like, it’s probably to answer normal person. Pretty, pretty standard.

Coby: Oh, man, that is really, really, really, really good. So I have a couple questions kind of associated to, um, your original point, you know, about leaders and therapy.

Zach: Sure

Coby: Um. What would keep somebody, like if somebody was, you know, listening, Maybe not, maybe not a business owner, but somebody that’s adjacent to a business owner and you had an opportunity to tell them, Give them some advice on how they could influence somebody in their life that they love or that they work with or they care about or that, pardon me, that they’re dependent upon to begin looking at all of this stuff. What advice would you give the person that’s seeking to influence another to start that journey?

Zach: Oh, uh, I don’t, I, I don’t know if I would give much. Advice on that. Um. I kind of like the idea that if you can’t go and fix someone, you can’t go and heal someone’s darkness, but you can’t sit with them and you can do your own journey and you can be expressive about the, aha, uh, moments that you’re having and kind of things you’re learning in life. But I think you can just sit with people while they’re on their own journey. I don’t know if I even believe in strongly influencing someone. I don’t know. It might be not a, uh, popular take at all, but I Think everyone’s journey is so individual and people learn best from those that aren’t trying to teach those anything.

Coby: Oh, ah, that’s a great line.

Zach: Like, think about that though, right? Like,

Coby: People learn.

Zach: Trusted your buddy that told you like, you blind spot here because of maybe history and familiarity and all that. And they were willing to say that. But I don’t know if you even kind of maybe said you didn’t initially react very well to that. Right?

Coby: Well, um, he said that I just want to make sure people learn best from those who aren’t trying to teach them something. That’s profound, man.

Zach: I mean, that’s an age old thing. It’s lead by example, right?

Coby: Well, yeah, but, um, I mean, as a dyed in the wool, know it all, um, that’s hard to hear, you know, but I know that it’s true. So. Yeah, when Ross did that, um, it was unasked for. It was unsolicited. Um. I try to run against or I try to work against, um, the premise that you never give unsolicited advice.

Zach: Sure.

Coby: Right. But once it’s solicited, you give honest, real, even if it’s bold advice, you take the opportunity. Um.

Zach: Yeah

Coby: But it was unsolicited. But we had a good enough relationship that I think he’s like, you need this. But I sat with that for a couple years and I defend, I was defensive. Like, I mean, ultimately, pretty soon I was like, I don’t know, because I’ve made introspection kind of part of my life ever since I got back from a, uh, LDS mission pretty early on in my life. And I just started therapy, never really stopped. And this was years after that. So I’d been used to the motion. But in that context, I was kind of surprised. A couple years later, I went back to him and I said, remember when you told that to me? And he’s like, yeah. And I go, okay, I’m ready to hear everything you have to say. And that was probably honestly, in that started to inform a lot of my exploration into what needed to change in my life. In a lot of ways, it led to my divorce and some things like that. So, um. Um. I was really. I didn’t want to hear it. I kind of knew it, but I didn’t want to hear it. But I’m glad that he did it. And I went back to him and said, um, you said something. And I can hear it from you, I could hear it from Ross. I had a level of trust with him. So I hear what you’re saying about Everybody’s got their own journey and you can’t go out. And when we need to tell something to somebody, we like to say, you need to hear this. No, we need to say it.

Zach: Mmm yeah yeah.

Coby: Um. But I trusted him that even if he needed to say it because I think there was a little bit of that. That doesn’t mean that I also didn’t need to hear it. And so maybe the question I asked you is what are the things. How do, how do you delineate between recognizing somebody needs to hear something from an outside source, and maybe they’re ready? Versus I really need to tell this person this thing. You know, I’m ego driven and knowing the difference. I mean, I guess maybe that’s the whole point of doing the work though, right?

Zach: Yeah. I mean there’s probably not a global answer that applies. And I mean I’m definitely wrong on this a lot. Right. Like, um. But I think you actually just said the basis of kind of my opinion. It’s more about like, do I need to say this thing for myself, um, or is this going to actually create positive change in this person’s life if I say it, you know, um, in an argument. In times of conflict, I think we do have this tendency of like going back to needing to be seen, needing to be heard, but it is more about you than it is about them.

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: If you can honestly say looking at this person, this is for them, then go ahead with your advice. And I think then to your question, it just has to come from a place of complete love and not uh, animosity. Not like, you know, I don’t know, it’s. It’s uh, hard news will always be better received. I think if the person can feel sincerity, love and maybe help some align to genuine maybe?

Coby: That’s the uh. Um. I mean these are really kind of foundational questions I’ve asked myself a lot in trying to find my voice, um, and doing something not performative, even this like, you know, the opportunity to go and share perspective, um, on a platform like immediately in my head I’m solving for that moment when I, when, when it pays off big and I. Whatever that means. Right. Then all good gets hijacked because now it’s to inform something outside of just the value of the process itself.

Zach: Yeah. Well I would say along with that. Ah. Too, um, like if, if you’re a people pleaser like me. A recovering people pleaser.

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: I think you do have a tendency of telling people what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear or if they ask something of you. You want to say yes. You want to give in. You want to, like, be there for that person that you probably love. I find people pleasers are usually the most extreme cases are with the people that they love.

Coby: Yeah.

Zach: But I think something that helped. Has helped me kind of deconstruct my people pleaser energy is just the idea that, do I want this person to like me right now or trust me forever? You know,

Coby: Ohhh, uh, Zach, that’s a really. You got a couple. I mean, you’ve just been laying truth bombs left and right.

Zach: That’s how I see it. I don’t know if it’s true for everyone?

Coby: Blitzkrieg.

Zach: But you really think about that. It’s like I can give in and say yes and like, always be positive and tell this person here. Yeah. I love your outfit. I love still delivering negative criticism with love. Right. Uh. Again, that’s the foundation. But it’s like, I think people tend to not trust people pleasers because they’re not getting the real genuine.

Coby: Yeah. It’s too easy to get what they want instead of what they need from them.

Zach: Right.

Coby: Marcus, um, Aurelius used to say he had the three gates. Um. The three gates of. I don’t remember what it’s called. I remember it as the three gates of something. But essentially the premise was that, um, and it’s told in a story. Ah. Somebody came and rushed to him at a dinner. Ah. Uh. Or at a meal, and he was in a public market and said, I must tell you this thing about so and so. And before he started, Marcus Aurelius cut him off and says, uh, before you tell me, there’s three questions I need to ask you. One, um, is it true? And the guy said, well, I don’t know for sure if it’s true or not. And Marcus said, well, um, does it have utility and does it serve a purpose? And I forgot what the answer was. And then the third thing was, is it kind? And the premise is that if it’s not true, you don’t say it. If it’s true but serves no purpose, you have to question whether you’re going to say it. And then it comes to the last thing. Is it kind or not kind? If it’s true and serves a purpose, but is unkind, be careful. But probably needs to be said. If it’s true and serves no purpose and is unkind, why Serves no purpose and is kind, maybe.

Zach: Right.

Coby: But those are the three gates that an utterance must pass before it leaves his lips. I love that. I’ve never heard it that way. Really. That’s Like a good framework to think through.

Zach: Yeah.

Coby: And I think in terms of, um, I apply that to bran. Right. Like, is it true right there? 80% of all marketing would probably cease. Yeah. Because it’s all a fabrication or an embellishment. And that’s not. That’s not what it’s about.

Zach: It’s winning a dollar. Not trust.

Coby: Right. Uh. And then once. Once you pass through that, does it. Does it serve utility? Right. And then ultimately there. Is it a. Is it a force? Is it a positive force for them Market.

Zach: Yeah. Right. So what a good way to think about it, because I think people do conflate the idea of needing to be honest with. Oh, like I’m. Or people that are kind of rude use being honest as an excuse.

Coby: They’re just keeping it real.

Zach: Yeah. Like, sorry, I’m just direct. Sorry, I’m just like. Yeah, but if it’s unkind, doesn’t need to be said. Yes. Like, I like that. Uh.

Coby: Your need to be direct or to maintain an identity of somebody who can say something no matter what doesn’t cost you anything.

Zach: Yeah.

Coby: It costs somebody else a sense of, well, being, a sense of control or ability to direct their lives in some way or their sense of value. And if you want to do good, you inspire those things in other people, because operating from that point of view, from that perspective, then they’ll do that to others as well. That. It’s a viral thing, right?

Zach: Yeah. Oh, there’s such a guy. I guess I’m full of one liners, but. What’s the quote? That’s like, honesty without kindness is disrespect. There’s a famous quote about that. Like, honesty without kindness is contempt. It’s something.

Coby: Something like that.

Zach: Something like that.

Coby: Or an apology without change is manipulation.

Zach: Yeah, I’ve heard that one we should start a quote wall.

Coby: We should start a quote wall right after the book club.

Zach: Yep. Got some takeaways.

Coby: This was amazing. And this, like, honestly.

Zach: Yeah.

Coby: Uh. Haven’t even had any. That’s the difference. Uh. That’s the difference between.

Zach: I’ve had some coffee today.

Coby: You had some coffee? Well, I had it already had 44 ounces. So I’m going to be like this when I pick up the kids.

Zach: All right, cool. Back to work.

Coby: Okay. See you.