Scaling Relationships Through Brand

Coby: Hey James, want to go get a treat?

James: Let’s do it, man. Alright, let’s go.

Nicole: Hi, it’s producer Nicole Denson and today we’re talking with James Stratman, VP of, uh, product development at Big Leap. James is a true digital marketing pioneer who has been ranking websites since 2007, having helped over 300 clients from local startups to Fortune 500s navigate the ever changing search landscape. He’s an expert in CEO and data analysis, but more importantly, he’s a master at listening to client challenges and turning them into creative high growth strategies. He’s also an amateur stargazer and a dedicated family man to his four boys. But today his eyes are on the digital horizon. Back to the show.

James: Hey, just to tell you first off, here, maybe I should have told you this before. What? Uh. My kids are all deathly ill with the flu, so hopefully I don’t give it to you.

Coby: Oh, I just got, I just, I just lost.

James: I’m joking.

Coby: Okay, good, good. I lost, um, a lot of weight. Well, that’s, that’s what’s gonna save you. Yeah, well, but it’s not weight I wanted to lose. I’m at the time in my life where I want to lose weight anymore. Like I want to keep it on and otherwise I, I look unhealthy. My kids, my daughter, yesterday, she’s like. Dad, what’s wrong? What’s wrong? What happened? So, um, how was the holidays for you?

James: It’s great. Yeah. Ah.

Coby: Did you get a lot done during the soft close?

James: Yes and no. I mean there’s always like, there’s more to do, right? At the end of the day there’s more to do. But yeah, I think it was a good balance.

Coby: Right.

James: Spent some time with family and got, got some football in. So it’s good.

Coby: So what’s your favorite sport?

James: Uh. Basketball, I’d say. Yeah, basketball is my favorite sport.

Coby: And you play and you played it in high school, did you?

James: Yeah, like in junior high, mostly in high school and then.

Coby: Yeah. You didn’t play in college?

James: No.

Coby: Okay. I uh, didn’t. I didn’t play in college either, in case you’re wondering.

James: Actually I was, I was wondering. Now that’s probably my number one question.

Coby: Badminton. Didn’t play that either in college.

James: No badmin.

Coby: No badmin.

James: No racquetball?

Coby: Uh. No, but I did. I, when I was a kid, racquetball was the stuff in Colorado. It was, it was like.

James: Yeah, right. It was everywhere.

Coby: It was, it was like pickleball. Now just.

James: Yep.

Coby: Different. Anyway, um, so what’s new at Big Leap? What are you doing at Big Leap?

James: So what’s new at Big Leap? Is really emphasizing brand and all of our performance marketing moving forward.

Coby: Yep.

James: And specifically, you know, how do we get good at sharing narratives with our client audiences that resonate. Right. Telling a story that matters. Right. And away from. Oh, really, just away from the bias often times that we, you know, put on ourselves. You know, if you think about a client. Right. All of us have our individual stories. Right.

Coby: Mhm.

James: It’s a very personal thing. I was raised in this area. You know, I was told to be this person. I have this bias or, you know, whatever your conditioning essentially was, right. Growing up. And, um, we got to step away from that a little bit. Right. We’ve got to take that mask, metaphorical mask off and step more into our truth, more into our authenticity. Right. And, uh, that’s really what brand lead’s all about. It’s about helping our clients understand what it is that they’re actually who they are, first of all, really at its core, and then what it is that they’re selling and how they can articulate that effectively through a compelling narrative in the marketplace. Right.

Coby: Okay.

James: And so that’s what I’m excited about with Big Leap right now.

Coby: What keeps folks, uh, from being able to do that? I mean, your approach to thinking about brand is. Is certainly a psychological one, but also, uh, kind sounds like a pretty personal one. So are there personal blockers with business owners, maybe, or marketing folks from doing that?

James: Absolutely. I think one of the biggest blockers, at least in my experience, is that, first of all, they don’t give themselves permission, right. To think out of the box and realize, you know, what. What if we did do something different? And this doesn’t have to be, you know, the brand, the company, the widget. Right. That someone else tells us we need to design. Right. In other words, if you think about marketing taking a step back and just looking at a, uh, marketplace. Right. Oftentimes the motion is we’ve got to take a scalpel and carve out some opportunity for us. Right.

Coby: Yeah

James: As opposed to how do we be radically different again, stepping into our truth and authenticity with a story and narrative that allows people to align to different. Right. And it is really an opportunity for us, as Big Leap, to recognize how can we facilitate that for our clients? And so, yes, when you go back and you ask that question, where are people getting hung up? Right. From just brand marketing perspective, it really is that first step of giving yourself Permission to think outside of the box and to challenge some of those bias and assumptions. Right. Um. I’ll give you an example. And this might be a little silly example, but my wife, okay, she loves who might watch this. So you gotta be careful. I know. Yeah. I gotta say all good things. There always are good things, right? Don’t let her talk about me, though. It’s all my bad.

Coby: Oh, no, because it’s her job. Like, you don’t know what’s wrong with you, so it’s her job to tell you what’s wrong with you.

James: That’s my bias. Right? Yeah. So anyway, she teaches piano lessons and she’s done it for years, right? And, you know, especially here in Utah, you know, a lot of us are exposed to piano, right? Or an instrument growing up. Mom and dad want you to practice and get good and have something to just enjoy, you know? Anyway, so she grows up learning how to play piano and she transitions to. You know what? I’d love to teach how to do this, right. I’d love to help young kids learn how to play the piano and really enjoy it. And I don’t know about you growing up, right, with piano. Would you. Were you told you need to learn piano or you need to learn an instrument?

Coby: Uh. My mom was very much a the bushes learning instrument. Instrument. And. And I. But. But I was fairly curious, so I. I learned piano. I got to the point where I could play like, some Gershwin and some classical, but I tried saxophone and trumpet, um, and ultimately settled on guitar. Uh. But I never had the discipline to really practice when it wasn’t something I kind of wanted to do right then. Right.

James: So, yeah. So take that experience, right? Put yourself back in, you know, those young boy shoes. It’s your parents coming and they’re telling you, hey, you got to practice, you know, whatever it is, right? An hour a day. And usually it’s in terms of the experience for the kid. It’s like, it’s this grueling experience. Here’s your manila folder, right? Here are the steps. Follow this theory, right? It’s very like, black and white, cut and dry, boring as hell, Right? Yeah. Yeah. And so somebody else’s method. This is how people are supposed to learn it. This is a tried and true way to learn it. And you’re going to get to where you want to be with this. Exactly. Okay. It’s this pre. Descripted, like prepackaged, you know, step by step that everyone is going to have to do, right?

Coby: I like this analogy. I know where you’re Going with this. I like this.

James: So the difference here is that Kristin, my wife, recognized that the value that she could bring wasn’t leaning more into the bias of that experience. Right. Of. Oh. Yep. Here’s the manila folder. Here’s how I’m going to help these kids learn the piano, but rather, what sparks. What sparks? Different. Right. What speaks her truth, the reason why she loves piano is that it’s a creativity outlet. Right?

Coby: Uh-huh.

James: And she gets to play at the piano, which is different than learning how to follow notes. Here’s what I mean. Improv, specifically. Right. If you can learn to play a song that you like from the radio and riff on that, what do you think the delight is for the child? Right. It’s a completely different experience. And it takes this, oh, I hate the piano to wow. It’s like, aha. Uh. Right. It’s this. I’m thirsty in the desert, and someone just handed me a tall, cold glass of water. Right.

Coby: You know, that’s interesting. So I’m looking back now against this and how I was trained to learn piano, which was I went through, like, the theory and the fingering stuff and, uh, blah, blah, blah. But when it came time to do guitar, one, I had to find the money to rent the guitar on my own, so I had different skin in the game. But two, like, I went and started getting lessons, and all he would do is he’d say, what songs do you like? And I’d say, a couple songs I like, and he would transcribe them into tablature right there. So I didn’t have to learn music necessarily, um, uh, for, like, a couple early easy wins. But I got to play songs I loved and recognized, and it was like, oh, my gosh, I’m playing this song that I love and recognize. I didn’t think I could do this. And I was hooked. I was hooked for a good few years, and I, you know, I looked forward to lessons. It’s exactly the same. We were talking about that. Yeah, yeah.

James: And so when you’re thinking about that. Exactly. I mean, resonates different, right? Yeah. Not only in terms of the kid, but also the parent. Because now it doesn’t become a fight to, uh, hey, you’ve got to go practice the piano for, you know, an hour a day. But it’s. When can I. Right. I get the opportunity to play something that I love and to learn how to do that better. Right. And so when you. Again, in this example, look at what she’s done in the piano teaching marketplace, it’s introducing Something that is unique from a different perspective, right? Because she challenged the bias in the marketplace and now she is wowing them with delight. Right? People, they notice that difference and they can align to it because again, it resonates, right. It’s a different experience. And uh, the beauty of that, uh, maybe just the last comment here, the beauty of that is that you can build on that. Right. It doesn’t have to be this kind of cut dry, like this is the experience of learning the piano, but rather it’s a delightful experience. It’s fun. It’s fun to see these kids go to the piano and, you know, just be creative.

Both: Yep.

Coby: So do you, um, so what are. I kind of asked this before, but I want to ask it again. What keeps business owners from approaching? Because when you ask like a person that starts up a business locally here, um, like I used to do a lot of work, um, at BYU’s entrepreneurial center that iHub. Right. And uh, it’s a room, it’s a big room filled with all these college age kids, some a little older, uh, that are driven by a lot of different things. Most of them have an assumption that they’re going to make it big. Um. And because it’s an assumption, it’s not really factoring into thinking so much. Right. Um. They’re there because they want to do something that’s never been done before. And I feel like folks start business to do something that’s never been done before. At least the folks that I end up working with. Right. And then somewhere along the line that turns into, well, how did other people do this? And it’s usually when they get to the first real lean period or when they’re faced with something that ultimately maybe I’m answering my own question, but then like self doubt creeps in. So is, is self doubt the precursor to forgetting why you did this in the first place and, and, and really staying true to that North Star or whatever, do you think?

James: Yeah, uh, no, I totally agree. I think that that’s one of the key things is, uh, self doubt or the imposter syndrome, right? Oh, wait a minute. I’ve never done this. Who am I to do something different, right? Or to introduce a new concept. Right. Or to challenge my own bias or, you know, that conditioning in the marketplace. And um, it is the fear of the unknown, right. It’s that there’s not a plan to follow and I’ve got to figure this out. And there’s a certain personality that is, yes, more entrepreneurial. Right. That can lean into that generically. Right. But yeah, it is. It’s this fear based perspective that, you know, at the end of the day, there is no guarantee for anything. So why not?

James: Why not? You know, one of my favorite sayings is, uh, imposter syndrome is a harbinger of success. Um. A different way of saying that is when you can’t see the path, you’re on the path. Right, right. It’s when you can see the path that you’re following somebody else’s path. And that’s all well and good for business, but the. And you had this conversation with myself for four decades. Um. Uh. It’s all well and good, but business is about driving profit. Right. It’s about capturing value and then delivering value at a margin that becomes your profit margin.

James: Right.

Coby: And so I hear often, oh, that’s all well and good or whatever, but we need to make our numbers this quarter. So what’s your response to that?

James: I think there’s a couple of different responses, honestly, but I think the main one is that I. Let’s take a practical approach. You know what, what reasonable amount of time do you believe you can invest into an idea before it has to be. Right. Profitable.

Coby: Okay.

James: And, um, you know, that’s maybe a certain perspective to have is can you plan that? You know, what’s a good name for it? That stage of early adoption. Right. That stage. Stage of, hey, I’ve got to introduce this concept and take it from its infancy into something of maturity. Right. Okay. In the marketplace. And I know as a business owner that that’s going to take a certain amount of time. Right. Can I invest that amount of time or not? Right. So again, it’s like, let’s unpack that uncertainty and put some parameters around it. Right. And maybe reframe the way you think about it so that you can design an approach or a method. Right. A plan, in other words, that can be effective for you. Right. So I think it’s.

Coby: So you’re not waiting for it to just hit tomorrow or hit tomorrow or today’s the day. Today’s the day. But you’ve created a framework that gives you a Runway. You know what the Runway is? Uh. You have a pivot plan. Here’s a different question, though, because I thought about it, I’m gonna just be cutting you off. I’m a terrible interviewer. Um.

JamesL Shut up and let me talk.

Coby: Yeah, he’s Cobe. Like, it’s not about you, but it is. Just kidding. Um. So, okay, so one side of the coin is, uh, remove the mask, remove the ego and just, you know, have a little faith in yourself and go and do. The other side is remove the mask, remove the ego, listen to the market and pivot when appropriate. And knowing when to do when, that’s, I think, what makes an entrepreneurial or entrepreneur successful.

James: Yes. And just building off of that part of the. Again, I said there are multiple answers here. Right. Because again, every scenario is unique. Yes. And every individual is unique. Right. Every business. But what is universally true is part of that removing of the mask is learning to trust your gut a little bit. Right. Because that speaks to intuition. And the best compass for future success is your intuition.

Coby: Okay.

James: And that is an opportunity for anyone involved in marketing, business, life. Right. And I think if you can have. That’s the trick. Right. If you can develop enough trust in yourself to be able to do that more often than not, then is there anything preventing your success in the marketplace?

Coby: I would imagine that if you can really achieve that, then a lot of the. No, I have to be right. Goes away. If, if you really are in tune with that, um, and really driven by a, ah, why that is greater than I have to be the best at this or world leader in this or something like that. But when it’s, um. I don’t even know the right word to use here to describe it, but when you are in tune with that, I feel like you probably lose a lot of the need to be right or the need to prove certain things. Maybe you let go, you can pivot better, you can keep an ear to the market better, um, and be more appropriately reactive to the data that’s coming in and how to treat that and what to do about it. Right?

James: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What’s interesting is that there’s a level of comfort here that as you continue to do this over time and you can sell in microwaves. Right. I think that’s another point, honestly as well, is, uh, this fear of, you know, if I do this, I. And I invest too much, then I’m going to fail and everything’s going to go bust. Right. Why don’t you just bake in from the very beginning

Coby: that you’re going to fail.

James: Yeah. An opportunity. That failure is part of the process. So let’s design around that. Uh. And it’s not just one big failure, but why don’t you design those micro failures. Right. And lean into the uncertainty a little bit with, you know, intelligent failure. We’ve been talking a lot about that at Big Leap as well, which is, how do we do that on a Micro scale that allows us to have the insight that we don’t necessarily have today.

Coby: So for a business owner to be able to do that, though, they have to have to have confidence in two things. One, that success is just a matter of time. Yeah. Which is such a tough lesson. But I think most folks. Okay, so I’m going to say this a different way. I think what marks maturity, emotional, uh, financial business, you know, business operating maturity, is the moving from a finite game mindset to an infinite game mindset. In other words, there is no endpoint.

James: Yeah.

Coby: There’s a horizon, but there’s always after that. And so now instead of I want to do this for five years so I can quit and go to Tahiti now, it’s, uh, in other words, fall in love with the process, not the outcome.

James: Right, Right. Um. Enjoy the journey.

Coby: Enjoy the journey. Uh. I think that is probably the delineator between ultimately what can make a great entrepreneur and what can’t. Notwithstanding the thing I said before, because I think that’s the actual attitude shift that there is.

James: Yeah. There’s this prescriptive patience that’s needed. Right. Yeah. And so 100%. And again, going back to that idea of enjoying the journey. Right. It’s. I can find comfort in that. As opposed to. Yes, to your point, success is some end goal of, you know, I’ve retired on Tahiti to, hey, you know what? I can find value in the system of doing it as opposed to the outcome. Right, Right. And that can be, uh, essentially the enjoy the journey. But like for my wife, going back to that example, Right. She finds joy. Yeah. 100% in the kid that is learning the piano. Right. And the outcome is that they’ve learned a cool song. Right. They can riff and, um, enjoy an experience. Right. But part of that is seeing their faces light up. Right. When they are introduced to this idea of, guess what? You don’t have to lean into the manila folder here. Right. Or the vanilla piano instruction book.

Coby: You can be self directed.

James: Yes. Be self directed. Carve your own way. Right. And it’s not someone dictating to you, but rather that intuition telling you where to go. Yeah. So it’s, it’s fun because I think that this, that’s kind of what’s missing. Right. In general, within marketing, it’s like, yeah, we’ve very much especially at Big Leap that, um, you know, we get so focused on time and place. Right. The last few years it’s been all about performance. And so you see this shift in the marketplace of leaning into more of the brand perspective and our flavor of that is exactly what we’re talking about right now. And it’s exciting because, again, it is the enjoy the journey. It is finding value in the day-to-day and not always in the outcome.

Coby: Um. I have a question. I will order this, and then I have a very specific question about all this.

Coby: So, James, where are we going today?

James: We are going to so Delicious.

Coby: Okay. And why so delicious? Why so delicious?

James: Because there’s a drink there that I love called the Southern Gentleman.

Coby: Tell me about the Southern Gentleman. It’s the first time you ever had one. I am from the. You are? I’m a Utah county boy from the South.

Coby: Okay, okay, that’s fine. That’s fine. I mean, this. If you had a little of this side. If I had.

James: If it was growing you know. Yeah. Huh.

Coby: Maybe one of those, like. What do they call the hair coming out? No, no, the. The. The, uh. The Kentucky Fried Chicken. Like the bow tie thing.

James: Yeah. Uh. You know what? That’d be a good look for you. That would. I already know what my Halloween costume is gonna be.

Coby: Oh, you should totally try it. And you should, like, do it like white. I bet you could pull it off.

James: I could totally.

Coby: How tall are you?

James: Not tall enough.

Coby: No, seriously, like, you’re six four.

James: Yeah, like six three.

Coby: Did you play ball?

James: Yeah, I did a little bit.

Coby: What did you play? You probably played center. Did you grow early?

James: Yeah, early. So like, six three, Right. In the NBA is point guard, right?

Coby: Well, sure, but in high school. In high school or even in junior high, it’s, you know, you’re playing power forward or you’re doing point guard a little bit, but it’s mostly center. Yeah.

Coby: Yeah. Cool. Okay. So when’s the first time you had a Southern gentleman? Uh. Southern gentleman. A couple years ago, I think, when Sodaelicious first, like, started rolling here. Right. Opening up in Utah county, specifically. And so, yeah, that was the first time I had it. But it’s Dr. Pepper, so my favorite drink is Dr. Pepper. So that’s the real wine.

Coby: Okay. What do they put in it?

James: So it’s peach and coconut.

Coby: Ooh. Yeah. So would that. Ah. I’ve never been to Sodalicious. Yeah, I’ve never had a Southern gentleman.

James: Well, you’re about ready to have. I’m about ready to have a Southern.

Coby: Can we start talking in a drawl when we have it? I’m gonna do that. If you don’t do that, I’ll be disappointed. Okay, I’m gonna do that.

James: All right. Um.

Coby: And. And we’re gonna have a good combo on the way there too.

James: Huh. Huh.

Coby: Okay, good. All right, sweet. Let’s do it. So, um, I have chased greatness my whole life. I, uh, growing up, believed that greatness was. Was, um, not only inevitable, but was my right. Um. That was informed by, um, how I interpreted my religious training. That was informed by which I don’t find the religious training at fault at all, just my interpretation of it. Nor do I find my parents fault or anything. It was just my interpretation. Um. It was informed by how I perceived my abilities against those of my peers. Ah. Again, very myopic and biased. Uh. And when life took a turn, as it is wont to do, um, I found myself in a situation where I wasn’t going to achieve the things. And I found myself being jealous of those I felt that were on the path to doing it. Um. And then I started chasing, well, what is the path to achieve greatness? Exactly what we’re talking about. And, um, even though my whole career I’d been in this place where I would talk to people about what you’re talking about and take the same perspective. And then I read something that changed my life, and it said, stop looking for meaning. Stop looking and trying to create greatness and just try to create moments. Um. And if you just spend your day creating moments, I’m being emotional. You’ll look back and realize that every step was great. And I thought, oh, yeah, so making people laugh, making people feel seen, you know, like I’m not any better at it. But at least now I know I’m bad at it and I’ve got something to work on.

James: You know, your baseline. Right. Yeah, no, that’s. That’s so true. And it’s.

Coby: That is good. That is really good.

James: That is good.

Coby: That. I mean, that is a lot of Dr. Pepper. I feel like I’m gonna. I mean, I already have a hard time, like, acting appropriate. This is not gonna help me. Yeah. Ah. This isn’t even the hard stuff, right? I know. You know, it’s really gonna make it great. A little bit of Southern comfort in there. I’m m gonna. I’ll let you know how that feels, how that tastes.

James: That’s one of your moments right there.

Coby: Right there. Moment of great. Well, moments of greatness are, ah, a lot easier when you’re drunk or whatever. I’m just kidding. So, um, okay,

James: one other thing really quick. Okay. So it’s interesting because my dad used to say this, um, fewer words, just his own version, but, you know, how is a man or woman. How is a life great, right? It’s not in like one major experience that, you know, that’s what made the life worth living. It is in these moments, right? Over time. And uh, and that’s honestly a great way to look at it as a business owner, a CEO, right? A marketing director, anyone who’s trying to do anything with something, right? And that is that, you know, how can I engineer my plan, my process so that I am winning those micro moments over time, right? And you make it such a, you take something that could be a huge colossal lift, right? You break it down into some individual parts that you feel more confident and comfortable with. It only engenders, right. Confidence as you fell on your face a little bit, right? Just looking back in life, right. Did you not develop more confidence in the next time you did?

Coby: That didn’t kill me, right? Oh my gosh. That didn’t kill me. Like, like, not even as bad as I thought. And this other point, so when you said like engineering, whatever, like, I mean, you know, we speak a lot of the same parlance and whatever. Um. But that, those, those moments, like for me, and I’ve said this before, uh, I love to ask the question how, like what is the highest purpose of business? So I want to ask you that question. I know that we’re going to have the same answer. So it’s kind of maybe pointless, but what, what is the highest purpose of business?

James: It is, uh, allowing people to live their own dreams, right? It’s, it’s a motion of service and becoming. Again, going back to that, enjoying the journey, right? And maybe less to do with, you know, that dollars and cents outcome, right? Because again the, the concept here that we’re really defining is if you lean into that intuition, right? Remove the bias, remove that mask and speak and embody your truth, your authenticity, then if you do that, right, and you remove the confusion of your ego, then you know the outcome is profit, right? If that’s what you want it to be, right?

Coby: Yeah, I agree. I think, um. Yeah, I love that. So, um, practically, what does that look like? Uh. I would just add super practical. What does that look like with somebody who has some value that they believe in that creates some impact? Let’s say they’re $5 million gross annual sales. Let’s say it’s not on a subscription model. It’s called a product company, right? And it’s a uh, one time product. Maybe there’s some follow through opportunities, but they, you know, they make a fairly, a fairly one and done kind of product. I’ll throw one out. Um. Uh. Cold plunge tubs, high end

James: cold plunge

Coby: tubs for 1500 bucks. Right. Okay. Um. And right now they’re engaged almost exclusively in trying to identify those who are doing the search for cold pledge tubs. Right. And they’re recognizing that there’s 2 and 3 and $400 options in the market that, uh, are pretty popular and people are finding him, or maybe people aren’t finding him. He doesn’t know, but he’s engaged in some performance marketing stuff and he wants to go into. Or she, the owner wants to go in a different direction. What’s your recommendation there? Like what is practically how do you apply all this stuff?

James: So I think practically it’s really starting.

Coby: And by the way, this is not contrived. I totally made that up. I mean, I didn’t plan this. I totally made that question up. Right?

James: Yeah, no, it’s ok. Uh. Well, I think the interesting part of all this is that you’ve got to start at the very beginning. Right? The very beginning is what we’re talking about, uh, practically what it is that you’re actually selling, right. And who you’re selling it to. And so you can’t begin to answer that question unless you have a very intimate knowledge in, you know, who you are and why you’re interested in what you’re selling to begin with. Right. Uh. This individual. Right. Is buying or selling the product of cold plunge, you know, tanks, whatever, then $1,000 more than the nearest competitor. Why is that? Right. And what gives them the audacity to think they can charge more? And that’s where we begin. It’s really understanding, unpacking that perspective which is unique to the individual, right. Whether that’s the founder or, you know, concept owner. And uh, that’s where you begin. And once you clarify what it is, that is, um, the authenticity, right. Being brought to the marketplace, then it becomes a simple motion of okay, who is the audience? Let’s do the same exercise of understanding those behavioral drivers, right. And how we can apply an effective narrative into the marketplace and then the vehicles, the channels. Right. That we incorporate that type of messaging again from a place of discovery and authenticity and uh, doing it in a way that allows you to, yes, from a performance channel, still be profitable, but with that window of time, right. We talked about earlier.

Coby: So you’re. So you’re just. What I’m hearing to put on my Dan hat, what I’m hearing is like, it’s not don’t do SEO, for instance. It’s recognize like where that fits in and lead with these components that you’re talking about. In other words, um, if you recognize, ah, you’re solving a problem that is more than just somebody needs a tub of cold water to dive into in the morning, uh, because a $200 version of that is going to do suffice just perfectly that what, what else is being, what other itch is being scratched with a fifteen hundred dollar version of that? And, and recognize that, okay. That informs the buying process, the decision making process where these people are looking for, you know, this kind of thing. If they’re even somebody in the consumer motion that is going to look for this or do a search for this, maybe, maybe getting to them is you have to get to them through a different channel or whatever. But if you start with that, that is going to show you which channels to use which you can still optimize and measure and improve over time and everything. But you got to start and put the first things first. Yes, first things first.

James: Yeah. You’re not putting the cart before the horse. Right. If you don’t have. Again, going back to the very early part of our conversation, if you don’t have a compelling story and narrative that speaks from a place of personal truth, then what are you doing? Right.

Coby: Yeah, you’re right.

James: I mean, that’s as simple as that.

Coby: You’re running somebody else’s business operation.

James: I mean, let’s just add some color to this picture a little bit. Right. If you’ve got this business owner that, or you know, operator, um, that has this cold plunge tank, you know, why is it that he got involved? You know, maybe it’s because, you know, the health benefits, maybe he was someone that didn’t have the mobility late in life and this, you know, revitalized his ability to live and be a father to his children. Right.

Coby: So there’s a personal story now there that gets sold.

James: Yeah, yeah, that. And that’s the thing is that quite simply, brand is a way for us to scale relationships. Right. And so if you don’t understand what relationship you’re trying to scale, then you’ve already failed. Right.

Coby: I like that. I like that take on that a lot. That’s good.

James: So the personal narrative, people don’t buy from brands, they buy from m people. Right. And so if we know that narrative, again, that’s why this whole concept of going back to speaking your truth matters so much. Because once we have clarity there, then the world is our oyster. Right. And we can apply those channels, whether it is SEO or Paid or email or text or whatever it might be, whatever vehicle we’re using to deliver our message effectively to the marketplace within either awareness through evangelism. That bow tie, uh, then we’re speaking from a place of um, core truth that you can’t drive us wrong.

Coby: So I have a. I have. I love that I have a. I had a thought. You’ve heard the medium is the message.

James: Yeah.

Coby: And I remember when I was. When I first in the. In the one marketing class I took that I got out of after two weeks and decided to go back into engineering. But and during that time um, for two weeks.

James: For two weeks,

Coby: My two week formal marketing education, I heard the, the medium is the message and it was applied to. It was actually. I forgot who coined that. I want to say it was like David Ogilvy or something like that. Right? Was it David Ogilvie?

James: Yeah.

Coby: Oh, look at. I learned.

James: There’s another quote I gotta tell you from him but keep going.

Coby: It was. I think it was applied to television.

James: Yeah.

Coby: Right. And of course the thinking is it doesn’t matter what you say. All that matters is that you’re on TV and that, that um, communicates all the things necessary in order to break parody and be the subject of choice or be the provider of choice

James: 100%.

I feel like for a long time. Well one I feel like ah. That that reality is true of every. Any emerging communication platform. So it wasn’t true of broadcast. It’s true of everything. Interesting side note in, in. Since Kennedy.

James: Mhm.

Coby: The winner of the presidential election has always been the candidate that mo m that best uses the. The most recent and emerging communication technology.

James: Yeah.

Coby: That, that, that holds like. Yeah. It’s like across the board. It’s true across the board. So this, so it speaks to that. Right. So Google search the Internet. I think the day of the Internet, the day of Google as the indexer of knowledge and information is now over. Right. And what we’re seeing is the emergence of something that we don’t really know how it’s going to operate and on um, what platforms will operate still. But the whole, you know, I’m in SEO, I’m doing SEO. That worked for a lot of time because it was the medium. It was like it didn’t matter what the message was. You’re in the medium and, and this return to brand is a return back to message until honestly some other thing pops up and then it’s like oh, you got to be on this. And the fact you’re on this, that’s where everybody’s searching. That’s where everybody is. That’s where, like, that’ll. But. And for a bit of time, maybe message isn’t quite as important, but for the next two or three years, especially, message is king.

James: Yeah. Yeah. And what’s interesting about that, and maybe just going back a little bit to what we were talking about before, it’s. And there’s an Ogilvy quote that I want to share as well that I think is very impactful here. You know, there’s a lot of noise in the marketplace, right. A lot of different channels. And how do we sift through the noise and find the signal? Right. Like, you can share. Again, we can go, right. We can. Going back to our example, we’ve got this cold plunge tub, right? We can talk about its function and features, Right. And do that all day long. And maybe, you know, a surface level benefit list, and, uh, we can use, you know, SEO, ppc, whatever the channel is, to distribute that message. But again, is that adding noise or signal to the marketplace, in other words, is who you want to have as your customer really listening? Right. And are you influencing our behavior? And that’s why I’m suggesting that the best way to influence behavior is to go back to your truths. Right?

Coby: Yeah, I like that.

James: And what’s more is, look, the audience, they’re sick and tired of noise, right? Ogilvy. And this is the quote said famously back in the 50s, 60s, he said, look, the customer is not an idiot or not a moron. She’s your wife. Right. So the marketplace is not dumb. Um. They can feel, right, intuitively that what you are sharing and the truth that you are, ah, communicating, uh, if it resonates or not. Right.

Coby: Align to genuine.

James: Right. Exactly. If it matters. And if it doesn’t matter, then you got to find the story that does. Right.

Coby: I love that. I love that. It’s been good.

James: No, this has been great, man. Yeah. This is fun.

Coby: Thanks for doing this with me. Yeah, of course. Yeah. All right.

Coby: The Southern Gentleman’s a freaking hit.

James: Yeah. That’s good, man.

Coby: This is the best ever.

James: Good stuff. Uh-huh. Um. Put a little Jack Daniels in that, you know? Yes.

Coby: Right. That’s what I’m talking about. Uh. So, so, so delicious again. When’s the first time you ever went there?

James: Oh, man. Maybe four years ago, five years ago. Okay. Like my kids, you know,

Coby: And it’s bee been the Southern gentleman the whole time?

James: Yeah, pretty much the whole time. Maybe Mountain Dew every once in a while.

Coby: Right. But what’s the Mountain Dew one that you get?

James: I don’t even know. It’s like Mountain Dew. And what do they have in it? It’s a citrus. I don’t know.

Coby: It sounds really good.

James: Yeah. It’s like there’s so many combinations. You just go up there, you know? Yeah. Put a little squirt of whatever you want in there.

Coby: Which is your favorite one to go to?

James: Oh probably the one in Springville.

Coby: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Down there. So delicious. Springville. Southern Gentleman. Yeah. Uh. All S’s. It’s easy to remember. You should do it.
James: S.S.S.

Coby: S.S.S. All right, take it easy.